Attendances information 2021/22

[FairWeatherFan]

First Division doesn't seem to be put up for the season.

[The Faceman]

5 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

First Division doesn't seem to be put up for the season.

Waiting on Dunipace from the 20th May 2023

And the Scottish (Big) Cup final

[CountyinBorders]

I know this is the East thread but is there any data available from any of the other leagues West, South Etc. ?

[Man from the East]

On 09/06/2023 at 13:58, The Faceman said:

Waiting on Dunipace from the 20th May 2023

And the Scottish (Big) Cup final

I’m thinking - 20/5/2 maybe  the Dunipace officials had other things on their mind that particular day. Being they’d just suffered the arson attack. If it was me, I’d just put in their :average for that date.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Man from the East

[The Faceman]

14 hours ago, Man from the East said:

I’m thinking - 20/5/2 maybe  the Dunipace officials had other things on their mind that particular day. Being they’d just suffered the arson attack. If it was me, I’d just put in their :average for that date.

I'm absolutely aware of the issues they had, hence me not issuing until I receive it. 

They have had that plus a packed fixture list etc 

If they want an average put in I will do as they ask with a note to say that's what had been done.

I'm in no rush, I waited 12 months to get the missing attendance for the lowland league game last season, I would rather wait and get it accurate than rush and get it wrong

[Man from the East]

12 hours ago, The Faceman said:

I'm absolutely aware of the issues they had, hence me not issuing until I receive it. 

They have had that plus a packed fixture list etc 

If they want an average put in I will do as they ask with a note to say that's what had been done.

I'm in no rush, I waited 12 months to get the missing attendance for the lowland league game last season, I would rather wait and get it accurate than rush and get it wrong

That’s very patient and understanding of you. Many would simply publish and be damned. Though can’t see that particular set of data changing very much at all. It would need a sea change to alter the deviation and pattern of the numbers. I see someone has managed to extrapolate some of the data for themselves. Hope you get your missing data soon.

[Casey Jones]

3 hours ago, Man from the East said:

That’s very patient and understanding of you. Many would simply publish and be damned. Though can’t see that particular set of data changing very much at all. It would need a sea change to alter the deviation and pattern of the numbers. I see someone has managed to extrapolate some of the data for themselves. Hope you get your missing data soon.

As the Faceman spends a lot of time and effort getting/collating and distributing the crowd stats,  he has every right to wait for the actual crowd stat to complete his records. 
 

The data is published on a monthly basis on twitter, where the other poster will have obtained the details to update on P&B.

[Man from the East]

6 minutes ago, Casey Jones said:

As the Faceman spends a lot of time and effort getting/collating and distributing the crowd stats,  he has every right to wait for the actual crowd stat to complete his records. 
 

The data is published on a monthly basis on twitter, where the other poster will have obtained the details to update on P&B.

Fair enough - I’ve no probs. But can’t see the benefit in getting the information up to 12 months late. Pointless?

[Dev]

Maybe there's a compromise? Issue an "interim" set of figures with no figure in for the missing match or put in an average figure for the club. Make it clear what it is and then issue the finished list whenever that is ready.

It takes a lot of effort and perseverance to  do what has been done throughout the divisions covered. Shame that the leagues in the pyramid don't do this anyway.

[The Faceman]

4 hours ago, Dev said:

Maybe there's a compromise? Issue an "interim" set of figures with no figure in for the missing match or put in an average figure for the club. Make it clear what it is and then issue the finished list whenever that is ready.

It takes a lot of effort and perseverance to  do what has been done throughout the divisions covered. Shame that the leagues in the pyramid don't do this anyway.

Your probably right, the issue is that I tend to move on to the next thing!

I keep goal scorer and timing stats for all the EOS and Lowland league clubs, with all the info taking around 4 hours per club to be put into the clubs files.

There is then the continuing work I still collect for my home town club (I should have stopped years ago but can't!) All the player apps and stats go into 3 different files all backed by paper copies - thats 3 weeks work solid.

Shed loads of other stuff and its difficult to get back on track! 

 

8 hours ago, Man from the East said:

That’s very patient and understanding of you. Many would simply publish and be damned. Though can’t see that particular set of data changing very much at all. It would need a sea change to alter the deviation and pattern of the numbers. I see someone has managed to extrapolate some of the data for themselves. Hope you get your missing data soon.

I probably should but if the numbers are to be trusted and I am 100% sure they are accurate then I must have that wee bit of patience. I have to remember some clubs have 1 or 2 people running the show, so much going on as you pointed out so the last thing I want to be doing is harassing them and potentially risking future projects 

[Man from the East]

13 minutes ago, The Faceman said:

Your probably right, the issue is that I tend to move on to the next thing!

I keep goal scorer and timing stats for all the EOS and Lowland league clubs, with all the info taking around 4 hours per club to be put into the clubs files.

There is then the continuing work I still collect for my home town club (I should have stopped years ago but can't!) All the player apps and stats go into 3 different files all backed by paper copies - thats 3 weeks work solid.

Shed loads of other stuff and its difficult to get back on track! 

 

I probably should but if the numbers are to be trusted and I am 100% sure they are accurate then I must have that wee bit of patience. I have to remember some clubs have 1 or 2 people running the show, so much going on as you pointed out so the last thing I want to be doing is harassing them and potentially risking future projects 

Good man, sounds positive

[Man from the East]

Just now, Man from the East said:

Good man, sounds positive

Actually that’s too much to expect anyone to do. 

[Casey Jones]

17 minutes ago, Man from the East said:

Actually that’s too much to expect anyone to do. 

Huge commitment, but luckily the guy seems content, at the moment to do it!

It’s comparable (and more) to the commitment that a number of committee members at our level face each year, so he and all the volunteers of our level of football should be thankful for. 

[The Faceman]

Its more about the information being accurate, the time is not an issue. Accurate info gives confidence to the reader, any problems no matter how small make the entire work questionable 

It only becomes an issue if the info is guessed, not right or i make a mistake and have to spend time finding the problem!

The aim at the start of each season is to get 100% of attendance info, goal scorers and goal times for all the clubs. Just now we are well short on attendances with 2 missing, even worse with 4 scorers in the East missing, and 3 games where the goal times are missing.

I am sure you agree if we want to use these numbers to improve then these things really need to be complete. 

[Man from the East]

3 hours ago, The Faceman said:

Its more about the information being accurate, the time is not an issue. Accurate info gives confidence to the reader, any problems no matter how small make the entire work questionable 

It only becomes an issue if the info is guessed, not right or i make a mistake and have to spend time finding the problem!

The aim at the start of each season is to get 100% of attendance info, goal scorers and goal times for all the clubs. Just now we are well short on attendances with 2 missing, even worse with 4 scorers in the East missing, and 3 games where the goal times are missing.

I am sure you agree if we want to use these numbers to improve then these things really need to be complete. 

Hmm, trouble is the only factually reliable and indisputable data is the actual goals scored together with the relative times.

As for the attendance information by some clubs - I certainly wouldn’t be quoting it as gospel. All you can do is compile the information you get. However having been at some of the games, I’m certainly not alone in being a little confused by some of the attendance numbers. 
Some clubs are quite accurate - fanbase and contactless payments must facilitate accuracy. 

Personal viewpoint only - it’s accurate attendance numbers that’s the driver of more investment from sponsors into clubs. It provides for the marketing strategy to factually based. 

 

[Casey Jones]

3 minutes ago, Man from the East said:

Hmm, trouble is the only factually reliable and indisputable data is the actual goals scored together with the relative times.

As for the attendance information by some clubs - I certainly wouldn’t be quoting it as gospel. All you can do is compile the information you get. However having been at some of the games, I’m certainly not alone in being a little confused by some of the attendance numbers. 
Some clubs are quite accurate - fanbase and contactless payments must facilitate accuracy. 

Personal viewpoint only - it’s accurate attendance numbers that’s the driver of more investment from sponsors into clubs. It provides for the marketing strategy to factually based. 

 

Do you think you could do better?
 

You initially sounded as if you wanted to see the Div 1 figures sooner than later. Now you are questioning the accuracy in the numbers provided? When you say you are not alone in your thoughts, is it a large number or a few? Also, would be interesting which clubs you think provide inaccurate figures. 

Thing is; not quite sure what you mean by “fan base and contactless payments must facilitate accuracy” as I don’t think they go hand in hand. Remember, the attendance figures are not purely based on payments at gate / or in advance. It has previously been described here and elsewhere, it’s persons watching the match from behind the barriers - and with that, there will be a number of ‘kids’ either under 15 / under 12 (depending on different clubs rules around charging) who will not pay anything at gate, but should still be counted in the attendance figures. 
 

As you say, and I will do the same, this is my personal viewpoint. 
 

 

[Man from the East]

14 minutes ago, Casey Jones said:

Do you think you could do better?
 

You initially sounded as if you wanted to see the Div 1 figures sooner than later. Now you are questioning the accuracy in the numbers provided? When you say you are not alone in your thoughts, is it a large number or a few? Also, would be interesting which clubs you think provide inaccurate figures. 

Thing is; not quite sure what you mean by “fan base and contactless payments must facilitate accuracy” as I don’t think they go hand in hand. Remember, the attendance figures are not purely based on payments at gate / or in advance. It has previously been described here and elsewhere, it’s persons watching the match from behind the barriers - and with that, there will be a number of ‘kids’ either under 15 / under 12 (depending on different clubs rules around charging) who will not pay anything at gate, but should still be counted in the attendance figures. 
 

As you say, and I will do the same, this is my personal viewpoint. 
 

 

I wouldn’t worry about it - you’re just reporting the number that you’re fed. 
I doubt very much if the same person counting the crowd gets the exact same answer if it’s done again 5minutes later. 
I’d reckon that if you want to get to even 90% confidence limits - you’d need a fair bit of resource on the day. Random and activity sampling methods are based on having adequate resource. As you say in the earlier post - there’s not a lot of resource available - clubs have many priorities on match days and few persons to allocate the tasks. 

 

[The Faceman]

18 hours ago, Man from the East said:

Hmm, trouble is the only factually reliable and indisputable data is the actual goals scored together with the relative times.

As for the attendance information by some clubs - I certainly wouldn’t be quoting it as gospel. All you can do is compile the information you get. However having been at some of the games, I’m certainly not alone in being a little confused by some of the attendance numbers. 
Some clubs are quite accurate - fanbase and contactless payments must facilitate accuracy. 

Personal viewpoint only - it’s accurate attendance numbers that’s the driver of more investment from sponsors into clubs. It provides for the marketing strategy to factually based. 

 

Tell you what there are some great points in your and Caseys posts.

Regarding the accuracy of the numbers given: 

I totally understand how difficult it can be to get anywhere near an accurate number - give it a try if anyone on here hasn't - you would be surprised! With that in mind I think everyone has to accept a +/-9 especially when crowds are moving about etc

Things that gives me confidence with this though:

1) having seen how seriously I would say 80/90% of clubs take recording the crowd numbers

Examples of this include many clubs go round with a clicker, a fair few tweet the attendance every home game, many include it on a match report, so these tend to be right on the money.

2) the number of games I and ground hoppers have attended with both numbers if not bang on then within the +/-9 is extremely high. 

The benefits to the clubs have been widely covered in this thread including sponsorship and how well clubs media channels communicate with supporters

Things that worry me going forward have been experienced by most clubs, mainly the drying up of volunteering. 

Going forward, I have contacted the East Region with the offer of help to promote our game through the social media platforms and analysis of attendance data. I believe clubs should be helped to navigate the sometimes tricky world of social media and have always insisted this is a underused route to grow clubs and crowds.

Ultimately the only way I see attendances being taken more seriously especially in the West is the inclusion of the attendance in the referee report. 

As things stand there are massive gaps between the East and the rest but again, I am willing to aid if contacted 

[Man from the East]

The availability of sound base data can only be a good thing for all concerned. Getting it isn’t easy.

Surely the power brokers in the ivory tower see the benefit(s) but I have some doubts. This type of information could only facilitate the task of acquiring League/Cup Sponsors - something which apparently seems beyond them. However if clubs don’t text the match  goal inf/time they then get fined by the EoS. So the paradox is that they fine clubs for not giving them data, but they actually do SFA with that data. I’m struggling to follow that logic. 

[FairWeatherFan]

On 12/06/2023 at 18:52, The Faceman said:

Its more about the information being accurate, the time is not an issue. Accurate info gives confidence to the reader, any problems no matter how small make the entire work questionable 

It only becomes an issue if the info is guessed, not right or i make a mistake and have to spend time finding the problem!

The aim at the start of each season is to get 100% of attendance info, goal scorers and goal times for all the clubs. Just now we are well short on attendances with 2 missing, even worse with 4 scorers in the East missing, and 3 games where the goal times are missing.

As the season goes along you publish what you have. Think it was the Lowland League last season that had the only missing game (Celtic v. Rangers strangely considering how well attended it would have been).

Why not publish what you have for the First Division? Putting it out there might prompt a response as there tends to be some engagement around the posts.