Austria v Scotland

[2426255]

Better off not putting a points total on it. One game at a time, let's see what happens tonight.

[Suspect Device]

Exactly. Win one game at a time.

[2426255]

(a) Defensive Shape

I think we will almost certainly start with either of two shapes above and the only real question for me is the personnel in the attacking areas. I listened to Chris Burke on BBC's Scottish football podcast who said Steve Clarke likes to start defensively and get an idea of what the opponent are trying to do mostly and make adjustments as they go and that perhaps explains the slow starts in the Denmark, Austria and Israel games followed by tweaks and significant formational changes around half time.

I therefore think we will most likely have two holding midfielders and depending on our attacking strategy play with two central strikers or two attacking midfielders. The other advantage of this formation is that we have better options from the bench if we need to change things than if we start aggressively. The disadvantage potentially handing the initiative to Austria who have already promised a fast start in their press.

(b) Offensive shape

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by 2426255

[Aufc]

The chat about Paterson and SOD is confusing me. Obviously Paterson is young etc and SOD is better defensively but IMO thay doesn’t really matter. We are playing with three centre halves so therefore Paterson should be able to play to his strengths and get forward. When he moves forward then the holding midfielder drops in to cover him.

When SOD plays we almost essentially sacrifice our whole right side attacking wise and become pretty easy to read.

It’s an easy decision for me

[PrestersKTID]

Every qualifying group is the same on paper.

If you write off the top team, get 4 points against the 2 closest challengers and beat the 2 "minnow" sides then you'd make second place nearly every time.

But we regularly slip up against the so called lesser sides. 

We should've beaten austria at Hampden, should've had 2 or 3 against moldova.

We need a serbia/england style performance tonight, go out with intent, high press and get an early goal. We've got enough to do the business but can't see it though unfortunately. Their big striker caused us a tonne of bother at hampden, we can't seem to deal with that target man, Big russian striker had us on toast aswell.  

 

 

[2426255]

3 minutes ago, PrestersKTID said:

Every qualifying group is the same on paper.

If you write off the top team, get 4 points against the 2 closest challengers and beat the 2 "minnow" sides then you'd make second place nearly every time.

But we regularly slip up against the so called lesser sides. 

We should've beaten austria at Hampden, should've had 2 or 3 against moldova.

We need a serbia/england style performance tonight, go out with intent, high press and get an early goal. We've got enough to do the business but can't see it though unfortunately. Their big striker caused us a tonne of bother at hampden, we can't seem to deal with that target man, Big russian striker had us on toast aswell.  

 

Kalajdzic is injured.

[PrestersKTID]

1 minute ago, 2426255 said:

Kalajdzic is injured.

That;ll do.

[2426255]

1 minute ago, PrestersKTID said:

That;ll do.

Arnautovic is back

Edited September 7, 2021 by 2426255

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

15 minutes ago, Aufc said:

The chat about Paterson and SOD is confusing me. Obviously Paterson is young etc and SOD is better defensively but IMO thay doesn’t really matter. We are playing with three centre halves so therefore Paterson should be able to play to his strengths and get forward. When he moves forward then the holding midfielder drops in to cover him.

When SOD plays we almost essentially sacrifice our whole right side attacking wise and become pretty easy to read.

It’s an easy decision for me

SOD plays like a full back, so we're inevitably in a back 5.  It also allows the opposition to mark Robertson out the game.

If you play Patterson, Forrest, or Fraser at RWB, you lose a bit in defence, but then you should be, since it's apparently a 3atb and not 5atb formation.

In recent games, we've surrendered the midfield completely whilst gaining nothing in defensive solidity.  But then we're straight back to the "what's the point of 3/5atb if you play Robertson at RB and McTominay isn't in squad".

So much would be forgivable if it wasn't for feeling of death by a thousand cuts.  We're neither defensively successful like the Ireland of 2010-2016, nor the attacking Iceland of 2012-2016.  We seem to be pretty disorganised at the back, and if not exactly fluent in attack, completely profligate.

Perhaps, if our strikers had a half decent conversion rate, we'd have won 3 or 4 extra games in the last year and we'd be laughing - and this entire thread would be redundant.

Edited September 7, 2021 by HuttonDressedAsLahm

[2426255]

6 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

SOD plays like a full back, so we're inevitably in a back 5.  It also allows the opposition to mark Robertson out the game.

If you play Patterson, Forrest, or Fraser at RWB, you lose a bit in defence, but then you should be, since it's apparently a 3atb and not 5atb formation.

In fairness Patterson, Forrest and Fraser haven't typically played against the teams that one might expect would push us into a back five - it's O'Donnell that gets that luxury.

Edited September 7, 2021 by 2426255

[Aufc]

The whole point of wing backs is for them to offer the width thay you get from playing wingers. If you have a wing back that doesn’t attack very much or very well then the system is somewhat flawed.

[Aufc]

SOD plays like a full back, so we're inevitably in a back 5.  It also allows the opposition to mark Robertson out the game.
If you play Patterson, Forrest, or Fraser at RWB, you lose a bit in defence, but then you should be, since it's apparently a 3atb and not 5atb formation.
In recent games, we've surrendered the midfield completely whilst gaining nothing in defensive solidity.  But then we're straight back to the "what's the point of 3/5atb if you play Robertson at RB and McTominay isn't in squad".
So much would be forgivable if it wasn't for feeling of death by a thousand cuts.  We're neither defensively successful like the Ireland of 2010-2016, nor the attacking Iceland of 2012-2016.  We seem to be pretty disorganised at the back, and if not exactly fluent in attack, completely profligate.
Perhaps, if our strikers had a half decent conversion rate, we'd have won 3 or 4 extra games in the last year and we'd be laughing - and this entire thread would be redundant.

I wouldn’t play Fraser or forest at wing back as they are wingers so it’s not their game. Paterson plays full back for rangers so wing back shouldn’t be alien to him. He is young and will make some mistakes but I’d rather than that watchint SOD plod up and down the pitch

[the snudge]

31 minutes ago, Aufc said:

The chat about Paterson and SOD is confusing me. Obviously Paterson is young etc and SOD is better defensively but IMO thay doesn’t really matter. We are playing with three centre halves so therefore Paterson should be able to play to his strengths and get forward. When he moves forward then the holding midfielder drops in to cover him.

When SOD plays we almost essentially sacrifice our whole right side attacking wise and become pretty easy to read.

It’s an easy decision for me

That's false though. SOD has provided 2 assists internationally this year while Roberston has provided one. 

[The Moonster]

2 minutes ago, Aufc said:

The whole point of wing backs is for them to offer the width thay you get from playing wingers. If you have a wing back that doesn’t attack very much or very well then the system is somewhat flawed.
 

Pat Nevin done a bit on this previously, can't remember where I saw it, but essentially the back 5 are connected with a piece of string - when Robbo charges up the left it drags SOD back into RB, Tierney moves into LB (and offers support to Robertson) and the two centre halves form a back 4 with them - the midfielders don't actually cover the full backs unless Tierney gets forward as well. I think we just focus the play down the left hand side much more (for obvious reasons), so SOD drops in a bit more and it looks like he's not getting forward as much but he's actually doing what is asked of him. 

[Aufc]

Pat Nevin done a bit on this previously, can't remember where I saw it, but essentially the back 5 are connected with a piece of string - when Robbo charges up the left it drags SOD back into RB, Tierney moves into LB (and offers support to Robertson) and the two centre halves form a back 4 with them - the midfielders don't actually cover the full backs unless Tierney gets forward as well. I think we just focus the play down the left hand side much more (for obvious reasons), so SOD drops in a bit more and it looks like he's not getting forward as much but he's actually doing what is asked of him. 

Maybe true. However, I would like to see the two wing backs being able to get forward. It would still leave three centre halves plus the holding midfielder back which should be more than enough cover. I don’t see why it should be one or the other.

[The Moonster]

Just now, Aufc said:

 

Maybe true. However, I would like to see the two wing backs being able to get forward. It would still leave three centre halves plus the holding midfielder back which should be more than enough cover. I don’t see why it should be one or the other.

 

I tend to agree with you aye, was just pointing out that it is perhaps Clarke's system which stops that happening. I do think we've suffered from Ryan Jack being missing, the system changes when you don't have him in there because nobody else does his job as well as him. I'm a tad worried Jack is completely fucked and won't play again.

[Jimi Shandrix]

4 hours ago, ahemps said:

Drop Gilmour for Jack???

[Detournement]

18 minutes ago, the snudge said:

That's false though. SOD has provided 2 assists internationally this year while Roberston has provided one. 

And in the England game clearly had more of an impact going forward than Robertson. 

[Detournement]

Scotland specialise in being good in one game out of three in triple headers so I think we will at least get a better performance tonight. 

Start the Wembley team with Henrdry in for McT and Gordon in goals. 

 

[Willie adie]

Just been re watching the 1984 game against Spain at Hampden , Christ what an eye opener, totally dominant, a striker in Johnston who takes chances,. Jim Bett and David Cooper tearing them new arseholes