VAR in Scottish Football

[VincentGuerin]

4 minutes ago, Bobby_F said:

I'd agree if we were looking at the offside lines VAR produces. 

We're not. 

We're looking at a period of play, and specifically because we don't have goal line technology people have to make a judgement - and I'd put more faith in people who've played or officiated in hundreds of top league games - felt the turf beneath their feet, smelled the grass - over a bunch of guys who's main experience is 5s or watching from their armchairs.

You're going to have to explain to me the relevance of "smelling the grass" to judging whether a ball is over the line.

We're not looking at a period of play. We're looking at a moment and deciding where the ball is.

You're really not making any coherent sense here.

[SJFCtheTeamForMe]

7 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

This is top level snobbery yet stupidity. I don’t think this is as good an argument as you think it is. 

Especially when those very officials are regularly useless in those "hundreds" of games he mentions. 

[kingjoey]

15 minutes ago, Bobby_F said:

I'd agree if we were looking at the offside lines VAR produces. 

We're not. 

We're looking at a period of play, and specifically because we don't have goal line technology people have to make a judgement - and I'd put more faith in people who've played or officiated in hundreds of top league games - felt the turf beneath their feet, smelled the grass - over a bunch of guys who's main experience is 5s or watching from their armchairs.

Did you think that over before pressing the "Submit Reply" button? 

[Bobby_F]

15 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

This is top level snobbery yet stupidity. I don’t think this is as good an argument as you think it is. 

Saying people who've played the game at a high level and spent 1,000s of hours on football pitches know more about football than armchair fans is snobbery and stupidity?

Seems fairly obvious to me, but I guess that's what a stupid snob would think.

[Dons_1988]

2 minutes ago, Bobby_F said:

Saying people who've played the game at a high level and spent 1,000s of hours on football pitches know more about football than armchair fans is snobbery and stupidity?

Seems fairly obvious to me, but I guess that's what a stupid snob would think.

I guess so 

[VincentGuerin]

7 minutes ago, Bobby_F said:

Saying people who've played the game at a high level and spent 1,000s of hours on football pitches know more about football than armchair fans is snobbery and stupidity?

Seems fairly obvious to me, but I guess that's what a stupid snob would think.

We're all being whooshed here, aren't we?

[Bobby_F]

17 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

You're going to have to explain to me the relevance of "smelling the grass" to judging whether a ball is over the line.

We're not looking at a period of play. We're looking at a moment and deciding where the ball is.

You're really not making any coherent sense here.

I used 'smelling the grass' as a way of separating armchair fans from players.  You'd get a very different sense of what happens in a game when you're on a pitch than when watching a screen.

And the reason I mentioned a period of play rather than 'a moment' is specifically because we're all agreed that a freeze frame from an angle that's not right on the goalline is not conclusive.

[Dons_1988]

Just now, Bobby_F said:

I used 'smelling the grass' as a way of separating armchair fans from players.  You'd get a very different sense of what happens in a game when you're on a pitch than when watching a screen.

And the reason I mentioned a period of play rather than 'a moment' is specifically because we're all agreed that a freeze frame from an angle that's not right on the goalline is not conclusive.

This genuinely makes absolutely no sense in the context of a ball crossing a line. 

[Bobby_F]

13 minutes ago, SJFCtheTeamForMe said:

Especially when those very officials are regularly useless in those "hundreds" of games he mentions. 

I've spent plenty of time at games shouting at refs; I still think they're better at officiating football games than us armchair fans are.

[VincentGuerin]

5 minutes ago, Bobby_F said:

I used 'smelling the grass' as a way of separating armchair fans from players.  You'd get a very different sense of what happens in a game when you're on a pitch than when watching a screen.

And the reason I mentioned a period of play rather than 'a moment' is specifically because we're all agreed that a freeze frame from an angle that's not right on the goalline is not conclusive.

What the f**k is going on?

[weebud]

On 13/08/2023 at 14:14, ropy said:

Where would you place the ref? 

In the bin obviously!!

[Bobby_F]

Just now, Dons_1988 said:

This genuinely makes absolutely no sense in the context of a ball crossing a line. 

The defender's positioning and movement before, during and after contact give more information than a still.

Bottom line is that most Saints fans thought it was a goal, most P&B non-Saints fans thought it wasn't a goal.

Most pundits, and the ex-ref I've seen comment on it, thought it was a goal.

Anyway, as someone said above, if we're using tech, let's do it properly so things like this aren't down to human judgement.

[VincentGuerin]

4 minutes ago, Bobby_F said:

The defender's positioning and movement before, during and after contact give more information than a still.

Bottom line is that most Saints fans thought it was a goal, most P&B non-Saints fans thought it wasn't a goal.

Most pundits, and the ex-ref I've seen comment on it, thought it was a goal.

Anyway, as someone said above, if we're using tech, let's do it properly so things like this aren't down to human judgement.

The early bird catches the worm.

It's better to have loved and lost than never loved at all.

Waste not want not.

[Salvo Montalbano]

5 minutes ago, Bobby_F said:

I used 'smelling the grass' as a way of separating armchair fans from players.  You'd get a very different sense of what happens in a game when you're on a pitch than when watching a screen.

And the reason I mentioned a period of play rather than 'a moment' is specifically because we're all agreed that a freeze frame from an angle that's not right on the goalline is not conclusive.

Surely that's what everyone is saying - it isn't conclusive? So in that event, we defer to the on-field referee - someone that has the required experience and ability to smell the grass that you yourself demand. He (and his assistant) said it wasn't in. The camera angle can't prove otherwise so no goal. It's no hard!

And if you want to go down ex-player and ex-ref seeing things better, how many ex-Pros thought the ball was out in the Japan example in the World Cup referenced upthread? In some cases they continued to argue even after seeing the angle and graphic that proved it was actually still in play!

[Dons_1988]

1 minute ago, Bobby_F said:

The defender's positioning and movement before, during and after contact give more information than a still.

Bottom line is that most Saints fans thought it was a goal, most P&B non-Saints fans thought it wasn't a goal.

Most pundits, and the ex-ref I've seen comment on it, thought it was a goal.

Anyway, as someone said above, if we're using tech, let's do it properly so things like this aren't down to human judgement.

still makes no sense. 

Plus nobody has said it wasn’t  a goal. They’ve said there’s no evidence that allowed a referee to give it, even though to the naked eye it looks in. 

[RandomGuy.]

Some argument to be claiming the only worthwhile opinions are professionals in the game and pundits/fans should be ignored, while simultaneously saying that the professionals in the game got it wrong and using the opinion of pundits/fans as proof.

[VincentGuerin]

4 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Some argument to be claiming the only worthwhile opinions are professionals in the game and pundits/fans should be ignored, while simultaneously saying that the professionals in the game got it wrong and using the opinion of pundits/fans as proof.

Have you ever played the game?

Didn't think so.

So, shut the f**k up.

[Bobby_F]

14 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Some argument to be claiming the only worthwhile opinions are professionals in the game and pundits/fans should be ignored, while simultaneously saying that the professionals in the game got it wrong and using the opinion of pundits/fans as proof.

Yeah, but the professionals at the game didn't make a decision that benefitted my team

[Sensible Soccer🏴]

VAR has just made our refs VERY LAZY, they let things go, without giving an opinion safe in the knowledge that someone is sitting watching a screen and will give them a reminder if they should bother to do something.

Gollum's performance in Dingwall last weekend was abject apathy, he just didn't call for anything, and whoever was watching VAR couldn't be arsed either.

[AJF]

2 hours ago, Salvo Montalbano said:

Surely that's what everyone is saying - it isn't conclusive? So in that event, we defer to the on-field referee - someone that has the required experience and ability to smell the grass that you yourself demand. He (and his assistant) said it wasn't in. The camera angle can't prove otherwise so no goal. It's no hard!

Exactly this.

Someone is tying themselves in knots here.