How did we get here?

[Kyle Reese]

11 minutes ago, Luddite said:

That’s a debate all it’s own right there

Everything about neoliberalism is a contradiction. 

[Kyle Reese]

51 minutes ago, Luddite said:

We are in complete agreement then. I don’t think it can be fixed either, So I just piss and moan about all that lost potential and worlds that could have been. Modern football really isn’t for me, I don’t watch any of the top European Leagues, not the Champions League nor The World Cup or the Euros. Even the lower leagues have elements of the shit I can’t stand, but there’s enough tradition still there that I can overlook it.

 

On your opening retort about Thatcher/Blair, you don’t need to be a fan of what they did to have acquiesced/succumbed to their ideology.

Agreed, sadly. Much like many Manchester United fans and their club’s success.

In terms of Thatcherism and Blairism, my family struggled financially during Thatcher’s years, and I did the best I could as a young man during the Blair years. I knew genuine poverty at times during both periods. Much like a football club or fan base in a particular era though, you have little choice but to vote for change, and try and do the best you can in the environmental moment you find yourself in.

What I was driving at with my Brexit example earlier, was the people who remembered a pre-EU halcyon time, and used that as their motivation to vote for Brexit, and to try and persuade others to do so. The two issues I have with that, are that 1) the world has changed so much in the intervening period, it’d never be like how they remembered it, and 2) the reality of pre-EU Britain was often nothing like how they like to remember it anyway. I think both 1) and 2) can probably be applied to the days of football before global capitalism destroyed it.

I too despise modern football. Outside of Hearts and (to a lesser degree nowadays) Scotland, I have so little interest in watching games on TV. I don’t and never will have “an English team”, and the Champions League holds zero interest for me either. I’m just about holding on with the Euros and World Cup, but even that’s been ruined for me through the EPL and CL. It used to be that when countries from different continents played, you were excited to see all these players that you’d never seen before from South America and Europe. Now you can see them most weeks on Match of the Day, and they generally play that really dull as shite EPL - too closely matched style anyway. Meh.

I’ll always support Hearts, that will never change. My son will too. There’s been an ancestor of my paternal bloodline watching HMFC since there were people watching. After that though? I’m really struggling to work up any interest or enthusiasm.

EDIT: What I was trying to say earlier (probably a bit clumsily), is that even though you can’t go back, you can try and improve what we have. I can be as nostalgic as anyone, but there comes a time when you just have to accept it’s gone, and concentrate on trying to improve on what we have. 
 

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Kyle Reese

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Everything about neoliberalism is a contradiction. 

No it’s not

[Kyle Reese]

Just now, topcat(The most tip top) said:

No it’s not

Glad you agree.

[kennie makevin]

10 hours ago, Chefki Kuqi said:

If we're doing fantasy formats I'd go 16/14/12, with a split in the top flight after a home/away fixture against each team as I quite like the split. 

I just never get this 'split' business. What does it achieve ? Artificially created so called 'meaningful' games whose psuedo tension stifles creative football and the blooding of young players and another chance for one final lick at the Old Firm testicle ? Utter nonsense from the 'Richard Gordon fascinating set of fixtures' school of delusion.

[Kyle Reese]

11 minutes ago, kennie makevin said:

I just never get this 'split' business. What does it achieve ? Artificially created so called 'meaningful' games whose psuedo tension stifles creative football and the blooding of young players and another chance for one final lick at the Old Firm testicle ? Utter nonsense from the 'Richard Gordon fascinating set of fixtures' school of delusion.

Yep. Get it straight in the bin.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

I quite like the split

For teams in the middle it’s like a promotion/relegation battle but you only live with the consequences for five games

[coprolite]

2 hours ago, kennie makevin said:

I just never get this 'split' business. What does it achieve ? Artificially created so called 'meaningful' games whose psuedo tension stifles creative football and the blooding of young players and another chance for one final lick at the Old Firm testicle ? Utter nonsense from the 'Richard Gordon fascinating set of fixtures' school of delusion.

You know that the whole game and leagues etc are all artificially created, right? 

[velo army]

The split is good when you're 7th or 8th and are safe. Not so great when you finish in the top 6 and then spend the last 5 games being utterly ridden.

Smashing thread this. I love looking at football from an anthropological and psychological view, and I value the contributions of older posters to provide context through their own experience, so I've been enjoying this.

[kennie makevin]

17 minutes ago, coprolite said:

You know that the whole game and leagues etc are all artificially created, right? 

Indeed, and that artifice should be put in place in August and then left alone to its own devices for the rest of the season. 

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Amidst all the clichéd lamentations about the working mans game being destroyed by capitalists we're actually moving in the opposite direction in Scotland.

Fan ownership is still the exception but it's becoming less and less exceptional. About a quarter of clubs in the league are now fan owned.

The relatively new legal structure of the "Community Interest Company" is particularly well suited for this purpose. Clubs have bills to pay and need revenue to do that but turning a profit isn't the clubs raison d'être

Of course many club boards over the years have run Football clubs on a "not for profit basis" it's just that they were doing it by accident.

 

[wastecoatwilly]

6 hours ago, Luddite said:

Good info, from that stance I guess my post was a bit OF-centric, although my interest is more in how the environment was created for the acceptance of neoliberalization, rather than all the examples of clubs and individuals jumping diving in after it had taken place.

As a citizen and football fan I have to accept that I happily gave up some of the “boring” old-fashioned stabilities of life for a more exciting and “glamorous” football “product”, buying into the  “brand” of a big club and it’s “success”, mindlessly consuming all the shiny distractions and luxuries of the marketplace without considering the hidden cost and how I might be contributing to the message being sent to our political leaders and great captains of industry that we really didn’t care about the things we were losing in return.

 

The reason I didn't post was because I knew it would turn into a Celtic and rangers bashing session,pointing the finger at the most successful clubs.
Letting the thread breath a bit and hopefully get rid of the small country small mentality brigade who play the blame game without really having the knowledge or remember the last 30-40 years.
Fans have their own misconceptions and their own perceptions of what happened for me it started in the 80's because I don't remember what happened before that.
From the 1980 Scottish cup final riot to the Hillborough disaster in 1989 football needed to get it's house in order.
The ban on alcohol to this day has treated football fans as second class citizens because we can't be trusted to act like fecking normal human beings yet we do it every day in our working life and family life.
When Politics step in to fix the historical problems there was no turning back the clock and it didn't matter what side you sat on.
By the time we got to the end of the 80's and Hillborough the game was up,the health and safety of every fan was at risk, I enjoyed getting a lift over at the turnstiles but we all knew there was no regulations on the size of the crowds.
New stadiums had to be built and the people that ran the football clubs fitted the bill so they changed the landscapes.
As we moved into the 90's the mindset of the football players where changing, the Bosman ruling was on going even thou the tribunal process was in place from the early 80's.
The clubs had no hold over their players any more,players had no loyalty to their clubs,for the 15 or 20 years in the game players relies their own talent.
Fergie's Man Utd also relies what was happening and the class of 92 was born (You can never win anything with kids)it's also easier to keep them at a club like Man Utd.
The Hibs golden generation of Brown,Thomson,O'Connor,Riordan,Whittaker and Fletcher had no chance of staying together in this new landscape Fletcher's trophies are Lamborghini's not silverware.
Fan will always go to the games like the roman's did for the gladiators.
Scotland has always been a socialist country the difference between socialism and internationalism is Greed.
 

[Kyle Reese]

7 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

The reason I didn't post was because I knew it would turn into a Celtic and rangers bashing session,pointing the finger at the most successful clubs.
Letting the thread breath a bit and hopefully get rid of the small country small mentality brigade who play the blame game without really having the knowledge or remember the last 30-40 years.
Fans have their own misconceptions and their own perceptions of what happened for me it started in the 80's because I don't remember what happened before that.
From the 1980 Scottish cup final riot to the Hillborough disaster in 1989 football needed to get it's house in order.
The ban on alcohol to this day has treated football fans as second class citizens because we can't be trusted to act like fecking normal human beings yet we do it every day in our working life and family life.
When Politics step in to fix the historical problems there was no turning back the clock and it didn't matter what side you sat on.
By the time we got to the end of the 80's and Hillborough the game was up,the health and safety of every fan was at risk, I enjoyed getting a lift over at the turnstiles but we all knew there was no regulations on the size of the crowds.
New stadiums had to be built and the people that ran the football clubs fitted the bill so they changed the landscapes.
As we moved into the 90's the mindset of the football players where changing, the Bosman ruling was on going even thou the tribunal process was in place from the early 80's.
The clubs had no hold over their players any more,players had no loyalty to their clubs,for the 15 or 20 years in the game players relies their own talent.
Fergie's Man Utd also relies what was happening and the class of 92 was born (You can never win anything with kids)it's also easier to keep them at a club like Man Utd.
The Hibs golden generation of Brown,Thomson,O'Connor,Riordan,Whittaker and Fletcher had no chance of staying together in this new landscape Fletcher's trophies are Lamborghini's not silverware.
Fan will always go to the games like the roman's did for the gladiators.
Scotland has always been a socialist country the difference between socialism and internationalism is Greed.
 

There’s also the fact that when they did play together at Hibs, they weren’t very successful and overall pretty overrated. I don’t think Hibs would have won anything remarkable with them, had they stayed there. Riordan and O’Connor would still have been wasters, Thomson would still have struggled with fitness and injuries, and Brown and Whittaker wouldn’t have been enough to make a difference. Fletcher, maybe… leaving Hibs wasn’t the reason some of these guys had disappointing careers.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Kyle Reese

[VincentGuerin]

3 hours ago, kennie makevin said:

I just never get this 'split' business. What does it achieve ? Artificially created so called 'meaningful' games whose psuedo tension stifles creative football and the blooding of young players and another chance for one final lick at the Old Firm testicle ? Utter nonsense from the 'Richard Gordon fascinating set of fixtures' school of delusion.

I've never had a problem with the split.

It's like art being worth loads of money if someone is willing to pay for it. Being in the top 6 is important if clubs think it's important, and they clearly do.

It adds a little bit to some games in late winter/spring that would otherwise not mean so much and in extreme cases could add a bit of fun with a team being cut out of a chance of a run at Europe. It's not the most amazing fucking thing ever, but it adds a wee bit of interest.

[wastecoatwilly]

4 minutes ago, Kyle Reese said:

There’s also the fact that when they did play together at Hibs, they weren’t very successful and overall pretty overrated. I don’t think Hibs would have won anything remarkable with them, had they stayed there. Riordan and O’Connor would still have been wasters, Thomson would still have struggled with fitness and injuries, and Brown and Whittaker wouldn’t have been enough to make a difference. Fletcher, maybe… leaving Hibs wasn’t the reason some of these guys had disappointing careers.

 

 

It was just an example of the change in the landscape from the 80's to now,whether they stayed together or not,proving it's impossible in the modern game.

[Kyle Reese]

1 minute ago, wastecoatwilly said:

It was just an example of the change in the landscape from the 80's to now,whether they stayed together or not,proving it's impossible in the modern game.

I agree on the whole with that particular point. I just don’t think they are that great an example, as I don’t think they would have achieved anything.

Your own club is one of the major beneficiaries of the system that you appear to be so against. How do you square that?

[Dons_1988]

48 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

Amidst all the clichéd lamentations about the working mans game being destroyed by capitalists we're actually moving in the opposite direction in Scotland.

Fan ownership is still the exception but it's becoming less and less exceptional. About a quarter of clubs in the league are now fan owned.

The relatively new legal structure of the "Community Interest Company" is particularly well suited for this purpose. Clubs have bills to pay and need revenue to do that but turning a profit isn't the clubs raison d'être

Of course many club boards over the years have run Football clubs on a "not for profit basis" it's just that they were doing it by accident.

 

That may apply to individual clubs but I don’t think it does to the SPFL as a whole and what the domestic game here wants to achieve. 

[topcat(The most tip top)]

3 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

That may apply to individual clubs but I don’t think it does to the SPFL as a whole and what the domestic game here wants to achieve. 

True but ultimately the league is driven by it's members and the more of those members are answerable to supporters the better

[Kyle Reese]

Just now, topcat(The most tip top) said:

True but ultimately the league is driven by it's members and the more of those members are answerable to supporters the better

Unfortunately we currently have a situation where some clubs are answerable to the supporters of other clubs. That is one of the first things that needs to change. You cannot have clubs making decisions based on the continued mass attendance of supporters of a rival club four times a season.

[wastecoatwilly]

16 minutes ago, Kyle Reese said:

I agree on the whole with that particular point. I just don’t think they are that great an example, as I don’t think they would have achieved anything.

Your own club is one of the major beneficiaries of the system that you appear to be so against. How do you square that?

Celtic was very successful before the 80's,when the landscape changed or the system as you put it,
Socialism is Capitalism's ugly sister M8.