How did we get here?

[Luddite]

11 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

On the wider debate, I find myself giving greenies to both Luddite and Kyle Rees, even though they're apparently arguing with each other.  I feel like that character in The Fast Show who just agreed with whoever was speaking.  They're both talking sense though.

No, we can't return to how things were and in some respects, that picture is indeed idealised anyway.  In terms of football being competitive and accessible though, it has markedly got worse.  It didn't need to become so lopsided.

The trouble is though, that while that makes the whole thing much, much less appealing for me and others on this thread, it's not made it that way for the general population.  

Those with most power already, sculpted things to suit them, making their power all the greater.  I get quite depressed about it.  I'm genuinely grateful that I'm old enough to have seen sides from outside Glasgow win our league.  I really cannot see a way to that happening again though.

Mate, I gave “likes” to Kyle Reese despite him countering my arguments. It’s complex.

RE: The Fast Show, I had a very similar thought reading various points and counterpoints on here, there’s an episode of King of Queens where an old guy (played by Ben Stiller’s dad) is on a jury and he is swayed from dead set guilty to innocent back and forth as both lawyers are so convincing in their arguments

Your last 3 paragraphs are so spot on, glad to know others are as miserable as me about it, well not “glad”. 

[Dunning1874]

On 01/02/2022 at 18:40, Alan_G said:

Bosman must have broken something significant too though. Growing up I was shocked seeing Dundee United paying 6 figures for players and now decades later we are lucky to get 6 figures for them.

I'm not really contributing anything to the debate here, but off the back of this I just wanted to chime in with the fact that Dundee United paid £750K for Steven Pressley in 1995.

They had of course just been relegated.

[Mark Connolly]

6 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

I'm not really contributing anything to the debate here, but off the back of this I just wanted to chime in with the fact that Dundee United paid £750K for Steven Pressley in 1995.

They had of course just been relegated.

That's still our record transfer fee

[Kyle Reese]

3 minutes ago, Mark Connolly said:

That's still our record transfer fee

Did we not sign him and McSwegen from you in 1996? Had you only had him for a year?

Edit: no that can’t be right ignore me. It must have been after we won the cup in 1998. Don’t know where I got 96 from.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Kyle Reese

[Mark Connolly]

1 minute ago, Kyle Reese said:

Did we not sign him and McSwegen from you in 1996? Had you only had him for a year?

No, we had him for about 3 years, he played 100 games

[Kyle Reese]

Just now, Mark Connolly said:

No, we had him for about 3 years, he played 100 games

Yeah, don’t know where I got that from. Ignore me, I’m clearly having a moment.

[wastecoatwilly]

10 minutes ago, Mark Connolly said:

That's still our record transfer fee

I thought we paid more for Armstrong and maybe a sell on clause? 

Edited February 6, 2022 by wastecoatwilly

[Mark Connolly]

4 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

I thought we paid more for Armstrong and maybe a sell on clause? 

That we paid.

Our record fee received is still the £4m for Duncan Ferguson from Oldco

[Kyle Reese]

6 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

I thought we paid more for Armstrong and maybe a sell on clause? 

Depends how much of that was syphoned off in to to sneaky wee Jackie’s bank account.

[wastecoatwilly]

8 minutes ago, Mark Connolly said:

That we paid.

Our record fee received is still the £4m for Duncan Ferguson from Oldco

This is why the Bosman ruling has effected clubs, they're still stuck in the 90's.

[Monkey Tennis]

1 hour ago, wastecoatwilly said:

This is why the Bosman ruling has effected clubs, they're still stuck in the 90's.

Wait.  I've been told that it's nothing to do with "the coin".  In fact I've heard that the big clubs do much better than the smaller ones because of an intrinsic superiority, a greater degree of "football knowledge", if you will.

Are you now shattering my acquired world view, by claiming that my source was in fact talking undiluted pish?  This has shaken me, I've got to say.

Nothing makes sense anymore.

[Kyle Reese]

26 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Wait.  I've been told that it's nothing to do with "the coin".  In fact I've heard that the big clubs do much better than the smaller ones because of an intrinsic superiority, a greater degree of "football knowledge", if you will.

Are you now shattering my acquired world view, by claiming that my source was in fact talking undiluted pish?  This has shaken me, I've got to say.

Nothing makes sense anymore.

I think it depends. When the OF get bent over and paddled by a big European club, then it’s down to the coin. When the OF do something similar to a smaller Scottish side, then it’s down to football knowledge. 

[wastecoatwilly]

38 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Wait.  I've been told that it's nothing to do with "the coin".  In fact I've heard that the big clubs do much better than the smaller ones because of an intrinsic superiority, a greater degree of "football knowledge", if you will.

Are you now shattering my acquired world view, by claiming that my source was in fact talking undiluted pish?  This has shaken me, I've got to say.

Nothing makes sense anymore.

Clubs have failed to adapt to the bosman ruling,The fact clubs have historic transfer fees proves that.
Big Dunk moved in 1993 there is no way Dundee utd haven't had a player worth more than that in 30 years Monkey, it's a failure in their part.

[Monkey Tennis]

4 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

Clubs have failed to adapt to the bosman ruling,The fact clubs have historic transfer fees proves that.
Big Dunk moved in 1993 there is no way Dundee utd haven't had a player worth more than that in 30 years Monkey, it's a failure in their part.

Oh, don't be so bloody ridiculous.

[wastecoatwilly]

6 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Oh, don't be so bloody ridiculous.

Jim McLean was famous for long contracts for players,when the bosman ruling came in they lost that control.
Outside the Glasgow clubs I think Craig Gordon has been the biggest transfer fee at £9 million.
I'm sure Big Dykes should've went for more not just from the doomhamers but also from Livingston.

[Monkey Tennis]

1 hour ago, wastecoatwilly said:

Jim McLean was famous for long contracts for players,when the bosman ruling came in they lost that control.

Exactly.  Bosman was a big factor in the changes to the financial landscape of the game.

That's the landscape which determines success.

[coprolite]

1 hour ago, wastecoatwilly said:

Clubs have failed to adapt to the bosman ruling,The fact clubs have historic transfer fees proves that.
Big Dunk moved in 1993 there is no way Dundee utd haven't had a player worth more than that in 30 years Monkey, it's a failure in their part.

Much as i enjoy the concept of Utd as a failure, i think that's a bit simplistic. 

The Bosman ruling is only one factor. 

EPL clubs now all have massive academies and the economic inequality is so big that they can pay a trainee more than a lot of SPL clubs can pay first teamers. 

Today's Duncan Ferguson's are more likely to be in an EPL youth system and get loaned out to Utd. 

As in wider society we're supposed to be grateful for the crumbs from the rich mans table. 

[Dons_1988]

15 minutes ago, coprolite said:

Much as i enjoy the concept of Utd as a failure, i think that's a bit simplistic. 

The Bosman ruling is only one factor. 

EPL clubs now all have massive academies and the economic inequality is so big that they can pay a trainee more than a lot of SPL clubs can pay first teamers. 

Today's Duncan Ferguson's are more likely to be in an EPL youth system and get loaned out to Utd. 

As in wider society we're supposed to be grateful for the crumbs from the rich mans table. 

And this is a key point. 

The market is so distorted that the one avenue smaller clubs have to bridge the gap to the biggest ones is to develop top talent but they are going out of their way to hoover up any youngster they possibly can.

This is why colt teams should be resisted at all costs, as it’s simply a vehicle to expand that pool of youth players and retain them for longer with the prospect of mens football at a young age. 

 

 

[Kyle Reese]

11 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

And this is a key point. 

The market is so distorted that the one avenue smaller clubs have to bridge the gap to the biggest ones is to develop top talent but they are going out of their way to hoover up any youngster they possibly can.

This is why colt teams should be resisted at all costs, as it’s simply a vehicle to expand that pool of youth players and retain them for longer with the prospect of mens football at a young age. 

 

 

Agree that that is what happens. Don’t know about “at all costs” though. There needs to be something in between youth and first team. 

[Dons_1988]

Just now, Kyle Reese said:

Agree that that is what happens. Don’t know about “at all costs” though. There needs to be something in between youth and first team. 

Not if it means clubs who can afford it play a youth team in the professional set up as a development ground. 

the main purpose of it is so that Celtic don’t release an Andy Robertson or they don’t have to pay Motherwell £3m for Turnbull. 

If we all genuinely desire a competitive top flight (as I’ve said before, those running the game have no interest in this) then colt teams have no place.