Can we ever imagine a Scotland without the Old Firm?

[Forever_blueco]

Genuine question . What would be done if us and our uglier and less successful neighbours did disappear to stop in twenty or 30 years being faced with the same problem by the two Edinburgh clubs? 
 

I do agree that us and Celtic dwarf the rest of the league in terms of resources and I genuinely would like to see a challenger or two  appear from elsewhere.  I just don’t see how us leaving wouldn’t lead to an inevitable vacuum which would most likely be taken by Hibs , Hearts and Aberdeen who would eventually be the consistent top forces in Scottish football 

[Trackdaybob]

12 minutes ago, Forever_blueco said:

What would be done if us and our uglier and less successful neighbours

12 minutes ago, Forever_blueco said:

and I genuinely would like to see a challenger or two  appear from elsewhere.  

   

[gannonball]

25 minutes ago, Forever_blueco said:

Genuine question . What would be done if us and our uglier and less successful neighbours did disappear to stop in twenty or 30 years being faced with the same problem by the two Edinburgh clubs? 
 

I do agree that us and Celtic dwarf the rest of the league in terms of resources and I genuinely would like to see a challenger or two  appear from elsewhere.  I just don’t see how us leaving wouldn’t lead to an inevitable vacuum which would most likely be taken by Hibs , Hearts and Aberdeen who would eventually be the consistent top forces in Scottish football 

I wouldn’t be so sure myself,  considering the budget the 3 usually have to the rest they often end way behind those on much smaller budgets and even relegated. For over the past 2 decades those 3 have been pretty poorly run when you look at their league positions.

Edited April 21, 2022 by gannonball

[Forever_blueco]

6 minutes ago, gannonball said:

I wouldn’t be so sure myself,  considering the budget the 3 usually have to the rest they often end way behind those on much smaller budgets and even relegated. For the past 20 years as a whole those 3 have been pretty poorly run when you look at their league positions.

True but over time and managed correctly on the field and off it  they would be the 3 with the biggest resources . That would inevitably also probably lead to a culture change around and inside the clubs where they would know at beginning of each season they really should be targeting to compete for titles and cups consistently .  
 

I think over a 20 to 30 year period if this scenario unfolded it would be be quite evident these 3 would naturally become the dominant teams in such a scenario.  

Edited April 21, 2022 by Forever_blueco

[wastecoatwilly]

1 hour ago, kingjoey said:

That probably sounded logical in your head.

Your club is the worst in Scotland for infrastructure and fan experience,you post about crowds in past decades who gives a feck?
The experience of going to a game now is much more enjoyable yet Aberdeen are still stuck in the eighties.
Every other club in the top flight has improved,have a good look at your own club before pointing the finger David.

[ahemps]

29 minutes ago, Forever_blueco said:

Genuine question . What would be done if us and our uglier and less successful neighbours did disappear to stop in twenty or 30 years being faced with the same problem by the two Edinburgh clubs? 
 

I do agree that us and Celtic dwarf the rest of the league in terms of resources and I genuinely would like to see a challenger or two  appear from elsewhere.  I just don’t see how us leaving wouldn’t lead to an inevitable vacuum which would most likely be taken by Hibs , Hearts and Aberdeen who would eventually be the consistent top forces in Scottish football 

I don't think the gap is anywhere near the same. If a club was to qualify regularly for the CL groups then we could have a scenario like you mention but I doubt the problem would be anywhere near what we have now as I don't see Hearts getting to the CL groups regularly when the OF really struggle.

It can happen:

10 teams have won the Swedish league since 2022 despite Malmo being the 'biggest' side.

6 teams have won the Norwegian league in the same period despite Rosenborg being regular CL qualifiers at one point.

5 teams have won the Belgian league since 2000 despite regular CL participation.

Teams in all these leagues won their league for the 1st time in this period.

I would expect Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen to be the most successful but not to the extent that other teams can't have periods where they can compete and actually win leagues and cups. 

 

[Dons_1988]

4 minutes ago, ahemps said:

10 teams have won the Swedish league since 2022 despite Malmo being the 'biggest' side.

 

That is astonishing. 

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Genuine question . What would be done if us and our uglier and less successful neighbours did disappear to stop in twenty or 30 years being faced with the same problem by the two Edinburgh clubs? 
 
I do agree that us and Celtic dwarf the rest of the league in terms of resources and I genuinely would like to see a challenger or two  appear from elsewhere.  I just don’t see how us leaving wouldn’t lead to an inevitable vacuum which would most likely be taken by Hibs , Hearts and Aberdeen who would eventually be the consistent top forces in Scottish football 

Presumably if Rangers and Celtic were to blink out of existence Partick and the newly professional Queens Park would step up to the challenge of representing Scotland’s second city at top level and Glasgow’s football fans would become divided north-south like a normal city as opposed to their opinions on Irish politics and transsubstantiation

[ahemps]

18 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

That is astonishing. 

Between 1992-2002, 8 different teams won the French league in the 10 years.

Only Nantes and Monaco won it twice and neither retained it when they did.

[kingjoey]

48 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

Your club is the worst in Scotland for infrastructure and fan experience,you post about crowds in past decades who gives a feck?
The experience of going to a game now is much more enjoyable yet Aberdeen are still stuck in the eighties.
Every other club in the top flight has improved,have a good look at your own club before pointing the finger David.

From that rant, I presume that you didn't bother to check why I wrote what I did. Your blood pressure must be through the roof after that.

[ol1vercloff]

3 hours ago, VincentGuerin said:

No. I mean what is it you're worried about?

As it stands our clubs never win anything and never make any impact whatsoever in Europe.

The Old Firm win everything and no non-OF team has made the groups of a European competition for about 15 years. It's only happened twice in the near two decades the groups have existed in the UEFA Cup. I think there's been one non-OF team in Europe after Christmas since 1989.

So, what do you mean by 'less success' on the pitch? We don't have any success on the pitch.

 

 

3 hours ago, ahemps said:

Surely clubs would be more successful??? There would have to be a winner for the league and 2 cups. The most likely scenario is that success would be spread out more than it is currently. Now Rangers are back to normal and the gap is as wide as it has ever been between the rest I'm guessing in the next 10yrs we'll be lucky to see 3 non OF cup winners and we'll never see a non OF team win the league.

There were clubs like Alashkert, Flora, Mura, Lincoln Red imps and Kairat in the conference groups this year. Surely a non OF Scottish club could compete with the likes of these teams?

 

 

With more money, there is a greater chance of winning something and maybe not embarrassing ourselves in Europe (progress).  With less money, and seemingly no ambition or hope, we stand less of a chance of doing anything anywhere ever.

 

3 hours ago, ahemps said:

Why less fans? If teams were winning cups and actually had the opportunity to win the league you think attendances would drop????

Less money, we would only need to get sponsors to match the money that doesn't go to the OF just now. For example we wouldn't need a £5m TV deal if the OF take £3m of that, we would only need £2m and then the clubs would not be worse off. Teams would cut their cloth accordingly. Scottish football is fairly well run at club level in terms of living within their means (there is 1 notable exception).

It may mean bringing through more local youths which has a good feel about it and is more likely going to help with the connection of local football fans.

I can only speak for Livingston, but we could be pumping teams 10-0 every week and we'd still struggle to get 2k home fans.  So we rely on away teams bringing good travelling support so we can make bank.  As much as I hate it when old firm fans come to town (or come to the part of Livingston where the stadium is from the part of Livingston/West Lothian where they live), we need them and their money. 

[wastecoatwilly]

46 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

From that rant, I presume that you didn't bother to check why I wrote what I did. Your blood pressure must be through the roof after that.

This thread is laughable David, 19 pages of Daft Diddies posting about having no jam in their donuts.

[Trackdaybob]

2 hours ago, wastecoatwilly said:

This thread is laughable David, 19 pages of Daft Diddies posting about having no jam in their donuts.

Thinking it's some sort of great achievement 'winning' every year with the odds heavily in your favour is also laughable. 

I prefer the custard doughnuts. 

I know, I know, OFTW etc, etc

[Monkey Tennis]

5 hours ago, Forever_blueco said:

Genuine question . What would be done if us and our uglier and less successful neighbours did disappear to stop in twenty or 30 years being faced with the same problem by the two Edinburgh clubs? 
 

I do agree that us and Celtic dwarf the rest of the league in terms of resources and I genuinely would like to see a challenger or two  appear from elsewhere.  I just don’t see how us leaving wouldn’t lead to an inevitable vacuum which would most likely be taken by Hibs , Hearts and Aberdeen who would eventually be the consistent top forces in Scottish football 

 

Nobody's suggesting it would eliminate the concept of a hierarchy.  

However, the imbalance would be nowhere near as grotesque as is currently the case.

[Monkey Tennis]

16 hours ago, ol1vercloff said:

 

With more money, there is a greater chance of winning something and maybe not embarrassing ourselves in Europe (progress).  With less money, and seemingly no ambition or hope, we stand less of a chance of doing anything anywhere ever.

 

I can only speak for Livingston, but we could be pumping teams 10-0 every week and we'd still struggle to get 2k home fans.  So we rely on away teams bringing good travelling support so we can make bank.  As much as I hate it when old firm fans come to town (or come to the part of Livingston where the stadium is from the part of Livingston/West Lothian where they live), we need them and their money. 

Such servile bloody rubbish.

Livingston's chances of winning trophies would be vastly enhanced if they had a little less cash in absolute terms, but no huge clubs in the way.

To not recognise that is utterly perverse.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Monkey Tennis

[Dons_1988]

4 hours ago, ahemps said:

Between 1992-2002, 8 different teams won the French league in the 10 years.

Only Nantes and Monaco won it twice and neither retained it when they did.

I was just being a dick. 

I agree with everything you’re saying. The 3 of us would have the biggest budgets but we wouldn’t completely dwarf the Scottish game unless something significant happened like uefa decided to start gifting CL spots to diddies. 

[Forever_blueco]

43 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

I was just being a dick. 

I agree with everything you’re saying. The 3 of us would have the biggest budgets but we wouldn’t completely dwarf the Scottish game unless something significant happened like uefa decided to start gifting CL spots to diddies. 

But if us and Celtic were out the league . Even regular European consistent income from Europa and conference would be enough to open a gap between Aberdeen , Hibs , Hearts and the rest IMO 

most seem to be looking at it through the same attitude as what you are feeling and position you are in just now but without us and Celtic in the league  
 

honestly think that without us and Celtic the biggest change you would notice within these 3 clubs is the culture and attitude towards consistently demanding to challenge and win  .
 

Boards would realise that the easiest way to keep having access to this income is to always have a strong challenging team and signing the best players from any up and coming challenger would be the norm. 
 

first few years would be a bit of a free for all but over time a new status quo would most likely form  . Btw not saying if all this is good or bad just giving my opinion on how I think it would pan out . 

Edited April 21, 2022 by Forever_blueco

[Monkey Tennis]

2 minutes ago, Forever_blueco said:

But if us and Celtic were out the league . Even regular European consistent income from Europa and conference would be enough to open a gap between Aberdeen , Hibs , Hearts and the rest IMO 

most seem to be looking at it through the same attitude as what you are feeling and position you are in just now but without us and Celtic in the league  
 

honestly think that without us and Celtic the biggest change you would notice within these 3 clubs is the culture and attitude towards consistently wanting to challenge and win  .
 

Boards would realise that the easiest way to keep having access to this income is to always have a strong challenging team and signing the best players from any up and coming challenger would be the norm. 
 

first few years would be a bit of a free for all but over time a new status quo would most likely form  . Btw not saying if all this is good or bad just giving my opinion on how I think it would pan out . 

But they wouldn't suddenly start attracting gates of 50-60,000.  They wouldn't sell vast numbers of shirts.  They wouldn't scoop CL fortunes.

It's absurd to suggest a gap anything like the current one could conceivably open up. 

[velo army]

5 hours ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

Presumably if Rangers and Celtic were to blink out of existence Partick and the newly professional Queens Park would step up to the challenge of representing Scotland’s second city at top level and Glasgow’s football fans would become divided north-south like a normal city as opposed to their opinions on Irish politics and transsubstantiation

I'm already looking forward to the construction of the 100,000 seater Maryhill Maracana to accommodate our half of the weegie support.

I hope we keep the voting structure as is. Wouldn't want our absolute stranglehold on the Scottish game to be threatened by uppity Embra clubs or that disagreeable lot from the North East.

 

[Forever_blueco]

49 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

But they wouldn't suddenly start attracting gates of 50-60,000.  They wouldn't sell vast numbers of shirts.  They wouldn't scoop CL fortunes.

It's absurd to suggest a gap anything like the current one could conceivably open up. 

Continued success over a long period of time could easily see each of the three attract larger crowd . Maybe not 50,000 but 30,000 would be realistic 

I’m not saying a gap like we are seeing now would exist . I’m saying the  possibility of another sizeable gap is a realistic prospect