Pyramid Watcher Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Marten said: Yep, I'm sure they'd come up with a different excuse should the SPFL finally play ball. Don't get me wrong, I do agree that there should be automatic relegation from League 2 as well, but that's just not an excuse for not increasing relegation from the Lowland League. In my opinion, the SFA should take more control of the pyramid like the FA have done down south and force through better promotion/relegation. One auto-relegation spot from League 2 and at least 2 from the LL would be a big improvement already. Also, they can start with kicking out the B-teams after this season and replacing them by 2 more tier 6 clubs. Yes, I know only 16 member clubs are currently allowed and they only get away with 18 as these B-teams are "guest clubs", but I don't see why the league can't permanently go to 18 clubs without B-teams. Sadly, I know a lot of this is wishful thinking as I can't see the SFA upping their game any time soon, hence why I believe the LL should open up themselves, that will undoubtedly quicker increase the quality in the LL and give a stronger argument in any discussions with the SPFL. And yes, I sound very harsh in my posts above, but that is because I do passionately believe in the principles of a pyramid. For all its faults, the pyramid has definitely shown to be a positive in Scotland but it still needs to improve. As the top non-league tier in the southern half of the country, the LL has definitely become more attractive. It's starting to become a good mix of ex-juniors, ex-SPFL, old senior non-league clubs & relatively new clubs. But the league lets itself down by its conduct. Allowing these B-teams in was an absolute disgrace. These teams have never added anything & only devalued the league. Also, not increasing relegation really let the league down. As said, there is no excuse really for any of that. That's why I sound so angry with the LL clubs blocking this using poor excuses. In my opinion, they are blocking improvement of the pyramid. And because I believe so passionately in the principle of the pyramid, that annoys me greatly. Why don’t you lobby the ex EoS teams who have been promoted to the LL (there is enough of them) to table a motion for another vote, or at least ask them why they haven’t done it yet?? I keep hearing the argument about “wait til more teams from tier 6 get in to the Ll, it will change the voting”, why has it not happened yet, or why have none of them tried. Edited August 28, 2023 by Pyramid Watcher 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyramid Watcher Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 (edited) 12 hours ago, Burnieman said: They're not in the remotest sense linked, it's being used as a blocker by the LL to protect it's founder clubs and every single person can see that. There are only 4 founder clubs left in the league?? Edited August 28, 2023 by Pyramid Watcher 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 1 minute ago, Marten said: ...In my opinion, the SFA should take more control of the pyramid like the FA have done down south and force through better promotion/relegation... There's an argument for that no question, but bear in mind that we'd have the Conference from next season if the SFA board had more control. Once we are closer to a majority of former junior clubs in the LL, this will likely get sorted. Right now there's still too many clubs that know that once they leave the LL their eventual natural habitat is tier 7 or 8 rather than the EoS or WoS premier so they are clinging on to what they have in an it's ma baw and you're no playin sort of way for as long as they can. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyramid Watcher Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said: There's an argument for that no question, but bear in mind that we'd have the Conference from next season if the SFA board had more control. Once we are closer to a majority of former junior clubs in the LL, this will likely get sorted. Right now there's still too many clubs that know that once they leave the LL their eventual natural habitat is tier 7 or 8 rather than the EoS or WoS premier so they are clinging on to what they have in an it's ma baw and you're no playin sort of way for as long as they can. It was 9-7 the last time, and we have lost Dalbeattie since then. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marten Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said: There's an argument for that no question, but bear in mind that we'd have the Conference from next season if the SFA board had more control. Once we are closer to a majority of former junior clubs in the LL, this will likely get sorted. Right now there's still too many clubs that know that once they leave the LL their eventual natural habitat is tier 7 or 8 rather than the EoS or WoS premier so they are clinging on to what they have in an it's ma baw and you're no playin sort of way for as long as they can. I know what you mean, I just said what the SFA should do. The awful conference plan shows they are not in the remotest bit interested in the pyramid as a whole, so I won't hold my breath for it actually happening! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 8 minutes ago, Pyramid Watcher said: ...why has it not happened yet, or why have none of them tried. Bonnyrigg Rose did try not that long ago through one of their officeholders. Normally it's only two years before you can revisit issues again in these sorts of contexts so it will be interesting to see what unfolds later this season. No point going for it until the people tabling the motion know for sure, or at the very least are highly confident, they have the votes in place to win. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowenan Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyramid Watcher Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said: Bonnyrigg Rose did try not that long ago through one of their officeholders. Normally it's only two years before you can revisit issues again in these sorts of contexts so it will be interesting to see what unfolds later this season. No point going for it until the people tabling the motion know for sure, or at the very least are highly confident, they have the votes in place to win. I think it would go through now, only my opinion right enough, but would have a very good chance. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VodkaTap Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 I have to say I find it amusing that the there is this notion that the LL is blocking promotion from the lower tiers. Since the Lowland league comprises the members within it, of course each and every one of its members will look out for what is best for themselves. Every single time. Just like every other club in this pyramid - from top to bottom. We only need to look at the recent attempt to foist a conference into the pyramid. Is anybody gonna claim that was not done to suit the wishes of certain clubs ??? Right now change is all just wishful thinking. Until the majority of LL members vote for change then that all it can be. For the absence of doubt - I am also firmly in favour of more relegation and promotion to and from the lower leagues. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, VodkaTap said: I have to say I find it amusing that the there is this notion that the LL is blocking promotion from the lower tiers. Since the Lowland league comprises the members within it, of course each and every one of its members will look out for what is best for themselves. Every single time. Just like every other club in this pyramid - from top to bottom. Every other club from top to bottom? I keep hearing this suggestion that every club is in it for themselves and would stand on the fingers of those below them, despite there being a huge and recent example of it not being true. In 2018 the 13 remaining East of Scotland League clubs invited the entire East Region SJFA, and any new clubs, to join them on the same tier in the shape of conferences, in the sure knowledge that it would mean most of them being relegated up to two tiers in a single season and never being league or cup champions again. After 13 Junior clubs had joined they extended their deadline into June to enable the rest to come over at the same level. They could have required all the new members to join below them and limited promotion to one or two slots per season, but instead they made a huge sacrifice for the good of the game. They're the turkeys that voted for Christmas. Edited August 28, 2023 by GordonS 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnieman Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 4 hours ago, GordonS said: Every other club from top to bottom? I keep hearing this suggestion that every club is in it for themselves and would stand on the fingers of those below them, despite there being a huge and recent example of it not being true. In 2018 the 13 remaining East of Scotland League clubs invited the entire East Region SJFA, and any new clubs, to join them on the same tier in the shape of conferences, in the sure knowledge that it would mean most of them being relegated up to two tiers in a single season and never being league or cup champions again. After 13 Junior clubs had joined they extended their deadline into June to enable the rest to come over at the same level. They could have required all the new members to join below them and limited promotion to one or two slots per season, but instead they made a huge sacrifice for the good of the game. They're the turkeys that voted for Christmas. Correct, and add to the fact that EoS clubs have no qualms about relegating three clubs (or even four) from 16 to ensure a healthy flow between tiers. If the Premier has a net loss of one club to the LL, they don't save the third bottom club, they promote an extra club from below. Buy aye, every club only thinks of itself. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyramid Watcher Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 36 minutes ago, Burnieman said: Correct, and add to the fact that EoS clubs have no qualms about relegating three clubs (or even four) from 16 to ensure a healthy flow between tiers. If the Premier has a net loss of one club to the LL, they don't save the third bottom club, they promote an extra club from below. Buy aye, every club only thinks of itself. Bo’ness, Tranent and Linlithgow are now in the LL, replacing Dalbeattie and VoL. if one of them, or all 3 proposed another vote I think it would go through now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stanley Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 5 hours ago, GordonS said: Every other club from top to bottom? I keep hearing this suggestion that every club is in it for themselves and would stand on the fingers of those below them, despite there being a huge and recent example of it not being true. In 2018 the 13 remaining East of Scotland League clubs invited the entire East Region SJFA, and any new clubs, to join them on the same tier in the shape of conferences, in the sure knowledge that it would mean most of them being relegated up to two tiers in a single season and never being league or cup champions again. After 13 Junior clubs had joined they extended their deadline into June to enable the rest to come over at the same level. They could have required all the new members to join below them and limited promotion to one or two slots per season, but instead they made a huge sacrifice for the good of the game. They're the turkeys that voted for Christmas. Great post. In the context of Scottish football and clubs generally protecting themselves, it is pretty incredible that the EoS did what they did. They could easily have clung onto their places in the Premier and it could have been several years before they finally got relegated and everything balanced out. They did what was best for the league. Hopefully, with the clubs involved in the Lowland League gradually changing, we'll see a vote passed to open up more relegation. Two automatic spots should be a certainty. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 31 minutes ago, stanley said: Great post. In the context of Scottish football and clubs generally protecting themselves, it is pretty incredible that the EoS did what they did... They were losing clubs like Craigroyston and Easthouses to the east region juniors and clubs like Kelso and Duns were falling by the wayside so there were serious questions how much longer the EoS was going to be able to keep going. Then clubs in Ayrshire (mainly) turned down the Superduperleague proposal and Kelty (with Bonnyrigg and Bo'ness also exploring the idea) decided they had had enough of the juniors and wanted to give the pyramid a go. If the EoS had been in better shape in numbers terms maybe they wouldn't have been quite so accomodating. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParkTheBusFitbaPod Posted August 29, 2023 Share Posted August 29, 2023 Latest Podcast everybody. it was a long one. https://parkthebusfitbawpodcast.buzzsprout.com/1595431/13489329-non-league-round-up-episode-3-part-1 Part 1 starts with the Lowland League then West Of Scotland (highland League, South of Scotland and East Of Scotland are in Part 2) https://parkthebusfitbawpodcast.buzzsprout.com/1595431/13489342-non-league-round-up-episode-3-part-2 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggyness Posted August 29, 2023 Share Posted August 29, 2023 On 28/08/2023 at 09:27, johnmc80 said: I think the lowland should open up relegation spots. I always have. I think most would agree on that. There should also be automatic promotion at the top end. But that isn’t going to happen anytime soon. You sre always going to end up with self preservation. Its not right. But how do you make turkeys vote for christmas? But wishing clubs to go bust is a tragic look. Its a game of football ffs! Agree with a lot of this. The problem, as everybody knows, is that the member clubs aren't going to vote for increased relegation without there also being increased promotion opportunity. I just can't see that happening any time soon as there's absolutely no chance, nor should there be, of two clubs being relegated from the spfl every season automatically. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Duck Posted August 29, 2023 Share Posted August 29, 2023 Right I’ve a free weekend and will take in a LL game. Pitch to me, who should I see? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyramid Watcher Posted August 29, 2023 Share Posted August 29, 2023 8 minutes ago, Disco Duck said: Right I’ve a free weekend and will take in a LL game. Pitch to me, who should I see? It’s not Dragons Den mate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Duck Posted August 29, 2023 Share Posted August 29, 2023 12 minutes ago, Pyramid Watcher said: It’s not Dragons Den mate. There’s certainly some dragons in Tranent 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyramid Watcher Posted August 29, 2023 Share Posted August 29, 2023 22 minutes ago, Disco Duck said: There’s certainly some dragons in Tranent Really not sure what Tranent has to do with anything, but I bow to your superior knowledge. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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