Spyro Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 3 minutes ago, It's Me said: I think in the next few seasons Dalbeattie would be fine and Creetown would be a good addition. 1 minute ago, It's Me said: What I heard is hardly any of them want to make the move first because they can survive without one another as they rely on gate money. Thanks, I've just sprayed juice all over my phone now 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
It's Me Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 10 minutes ago, Burnieman said: Licences aren't the issue here as you well know. Clubs in the SoS are a well below the level required to compete with the top WoS and EoS clubs, the Broxburn result showed that, the previous play-off results have shown that, the South Challenge Cup results have shown that. Neither does it appear the clubs themselves want promotion, understandably. Threave buggered off to the WoS, and Dalbeattie officials are alleged to have said that promotion would be a disaster financially. So do you seriously think that leaving SoS at tier 6 is healthy for both SoS and the Pyramid as a whole? It doesn't matter what I think. The SoS will remain at tier 6 so everyone just needs to accept that and get on with it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnieman Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 Just now, It's Me said: It doesn't matter what I think. The SoS will remain at tier 6 so everyone just needs to accept that and get on with it. So you don't have any sort of evidence that any club in the SoS want promotion to the LL but want them to remain at tier 6 "just because". You understand how daft that looks? Look, I have zero issues against the SoS, they are a long standing league and played their part in setting-up the LL to create the Pyramid so we should all be grateful to them for that, but SoS clubs have struggled badly with the LL and seem grateful to drop back to the LL and have little interest in promotion. That's the reality of it, clubs have to look after themselves first and foremost and the SoS is the right environment for them. The Pyramid should be fluid. In England, changes have been going on for 35+ years to their Pyramid structure and there is no reason why - after a decade of the LL - that we review the good and bad bits and see what needs to change to help tiers 5 to 10 become better. That I'm afraid includes dropping the SoS as a direct feeder to the LL. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
It's Me Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 7 minutes ago, Burnieman said: So you don't have any sort of evidence that any club in the SoS want promotion to the LL but want them to remain at tier 6 "just because". You understand how daft that looks? Look, I have zero issues against the SoS, they are a long standing league and played their part in setting-up the LL to create the Pyramid so we should all be grateful to them for that, but SoS clubs have struggled badly with the LL and seem grateful to drop back to the LL and have little interest in promotion. That's the reality of it, clubs have to look after themselves first and foremost and the SoS is the right environment for them. The Pyramid should be fluid. In England, changes have been going on for 35+ years to their Pyramid structure and there is no reason why - after a decade of the LL - that we review the good and bad bits and see what needs to change to help tiers 5 to 10 become better. That I'm afraid includes dropping the SoS as a direct feeder to the LL. If you set the pyramid in Scotland today I agree it would look different. But nothing will change so we may as well accept it and move on. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnieman Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 Just now, It's Me said: If you set the pyramid in Scotland today I agree it would look different. But nothing will change so we may as well accept it and move on. So you agree the SoS at tier 6 - in light of all the evidence - needs reviewed. We're making progress already, 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
It's Me Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 39 minutes ago, Burnieman said: So you agree the SoS at tier 6 - in light of all the evidence - needs reviewed. We're making progress already, That's not what I said. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bestsinceslicebread Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 (edited) On 30/05/2024 at 22:37, It's Me said: If you set the pyramid in Scotland today I agree it would look different. But nothing will change so we may as well accept it and move on. Trying to put this into words so its understood the way its intended, but feck me, that's hard Sorry the pyramid will grow and adapt to improve. There are obviously people, clubs individuals who are only thinking of their clubs or to try and gain power or make money for themselves. I'm not just talking about the Lowland or SOS. As you said, if the pyramid was started today it would look different. Agreed, if we all learned from the mistakes of today - Yes 100%. SOSFL is at tier 6, are they a league whose top division should be at the level of tier 6, without a shadow of doubt they are not. Are they justified to being at tier 6 at the moment, yes they are, as they were one of the first. SOSFL in regards to the other tier 6 leagues, reminds me of youth football, their champions go into playoffs and recorded defeats of 7 . 0, 8 . 1 (14 . 2 aggregate), are what is expected and I don't even see any SOSFL tier 6 club winning a playoff to be promoted to tier 5, this tells me that the league should be lower down a level. Honestly for a tier 6 champion these scores should not be happening. So if and when the a restructure happens it should all be agreed mutually by everyone, they should never be forced, it should be mutual agreement where they go and even then it has to be viable as this opens up a big can of worms but I believe there will be a solution some day that most people in the four leagues it effects will be happy with. I will say, i don't care what anyone thinks, for the SOSFL chairman and committee to see their champions demoralized each year like this is highly embarrassing or they should be Edited June 1 by Bestsinceslicebread 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stanley Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 (edited) 2 hours ago, It's Me said: If you set the pyramid in Scotland today I agree it would look different. But nothing will change so we may as well accept it and move on. People have had significant doubts about anything changing at all in the pyramid over the years but there have been huge changes including all the former junior clubs moving into the pyramid. The pyramid has evolved over the past few years and will continue to in the future. "Nothing will change" isn't really an argument. Many people did not predict the old West Juniors forming the WoSFL or the east juniors moving over to the EoSFL. Unfortunately, an opportunity was missed for the old West juniors and SoS to merge in a similar way to the East juniors and EoS but I would expect something to change with the SoS at some point in the future in terms of its position in the pyramid. Edited May 30 by stanley 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benidorm Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 (edited) The "but they're licenced" argument is just weak. The likes of Broomhill are pretty much licenced on the back of ground hopping around whatever SPFL stadium is willing to take them each season. It really shouldn't be a black and white barometer of a clubs professionalism or ambition. Edited May 31 by Benidorm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordi1977 Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 The South of Scotland League is a long established league and as such they do deserve some respect. From what I can see, they have always gone about their business in the right way and with the big influx of clubs changing codes, haven’t looked to stand in anyone's way of progress. Unfortunately, that's now caught everyone's eye a bit due to the almost guaranteed chance of a licensed East and South winner... but no guarantee of a licensed West winner. And putting the South in direct competition for a playoff that does mean something. The pyramid in it's current full form... ie all regions being a part of it... is only 3 years old (covid got in the way). So it will evolve over time and it's levels will change. But I think the change for the SofSL is not lowering it's ranking, but giving it a fixed boundary between it and the west... and moving that north - give them an influx of more clubs. I think they were slightly forgotten about/shafted at WofSL inception and maybe guilty themselves of staying too quiet. But surely the answer was... add in Ayrshire clubs - definitely South Ayrshire, possibly also East Ayrshire. That gives the league about 15-20 more clubs (including those in D&G that play elsewhere) - this likely gives them scope for 3 divisions where all can find their level and possibly opens up a larger playing pool for clubs to draw from. It would help with the lack of competition the better South teams have by giving them stronger sides (and that lack of competition was very evident in the Broxburn v Dalbeattie plsyoff). This would also help the WofSL by breaking up the Junior "cartel" a bit and give Pollok/Clydebank, etc more chance of winning their league to qualify for a play-off. Arranging the West and South pyramid properly at the West inception is a huge missed opportunity by the SFA and whoever else was involved. It's left the South a bit hung out to dry and looked down upon and due to an influx of amateurs and boys clubs in a rapid timescale, left the West a closed shop. Maybe after the West gets itself a couple of licensed winners and promotions, it might be looked at again... especially if less committed West pyramid sides start to see the benefit... but more likely everything will stay as it is for another 50-100 years and this same debate will swing around every couple of seasons! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparticus Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 Perhaps going forward some kind of conference league between league 2 and the lowland and highland is the way to go. Certainly wouldnt have any b teams allowed in it. This would expand both Lowland and highland to more clubs The initial setup wouldnt be difficult top 5 from both leagues to a ten team conference alongside the normal playoff. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shannon Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 The Lowland League really should have been allowed to split into West and East at the formation or when West sides joined but SPFL / Lowland League clearly didnt want this. Also the Junior teams at time didn't get involved in debate to really push for this. It would make much more sense with Scotland's population largely in central belt to have 3 feeder leagues to SPFL with West, East and North. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 1 hour ago, Sparticus said: Perhaps going forward some kind of conference league between league 2 and the lowland and highland is the way to go. Certainly wouldnt have any b teams allowed in it. This would expand both Lowland and highland to more clubs The initial setup wouldnt be difficult top 5 from both leagues to a ten team conference alongside the normal playoff. Who would pay for all the increased travel costs and reduced away support? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spyro Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 1 hour ago, Sparticus said: Perhaps going forward some kind of conference league between league 2 and the lowland and highland is the way to go. Certainly wouldnt have any b teams allowed in it. This would expand both Lowland and highland to more clubs The initial setup wouldnt be difficult top 5 from both leagues to a ten team conference alongside the normal playoff. Good luck selling that to the Highland League teams 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
An Absolute Imposter Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 Would need to tag a dozen folk, so hoping anyone interested reads it. My views on the SOSFL and its place in Scottish Football are littered across various threads in both my usernames. But firstly a few facts as best I can recall them. The SOSFL clubs have not had a good record in the LL playoff games, that is there in black&white for all to see. SOSFL clubs were in at the inception of the LL when none of the then Junior Leagues appeared willing to sign up. The SOSFL did not put up any objections when the WOSFL was being setup, as the recognised league for the West & South West, they would have had that right I believe. What is the leagues reward for these: somehow they are to blame for the LL's intransigence in not opening up promotion from Tier 6; they alone are holding up the development of the pyramid below Tier 5 by not doing the decent thing and dropping voluntarily to Tier 75 or wherever South football can be ignored, just like it was before the birth of the WOSFL. I see the 11 SOS clubs regularly, with a few months gap over winter there, maybe more than any other. I don't know. So I feel I am in a privileged position to comment on these 11 clubs and their abilities or lack of as some would have it. There is no denying that the SOS clubs are not at the same level as the 2 other Tier 6 leagues in the LL area. How far down you can go before finding a comparable level is open to debate. As I have pointed repeatedly, the time to sort out the pyramid in the west was in 2020, when the WOSFL was being setup. Are you telling me no one thought; " Oh hang on we already have a Tier 6 league covering that area, right let's all sit down and have a discussion to gauge everyone's thoughts on the situation". There was enough 'discussion' when the east was going through its rebirth, but I guess nobody gave any serious thought to the SOSFL and its position in the pyramid. Not until now, that they are causing this almighty traffic jam in the pyramid. The pyramid will only evolve once all the interested party's put aside their own little agendas and fears. What is needed is a coherent, researched and fully thought out plan put forward. Not the half-baked, self-interest rubbish that comes out like conference leagues, b teams and all the other cockamamie crap put forward. What really gets to me are the comments demeaning the south clubs, intimating they don't deserve their place in the pyramid. Some of the comments are pathetic; if you don't want promotion to the LL then go away, if you don't want to take part in our pyramid go join an amateur league. Central-belt superiority drivel. Without rechecking; of the 11 clubs in the league only the one plays in a council cage and have plans in place to upgrade to their own facility. The grounds the clubs occupy are excellent and have good fan, player and other facilities. Clubs are locally run and owned, and decent or good financially. A number with plans and thoughts to holistically upgrade their facilities. No Santa's, Pie or Chicken Men down here thank you very much. All clubs are ingrained and an active part of each of the small communities they are part of. So in conclusion rather than decrying and devauling football in the south do an uncentral-belt thing and recognise there is a Scotland away from the Glasgow- Edinburgh corridor, if you can. But, why change the habit of a lifetime. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnieman Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 3 minutes ago, An Absolute Imposter said: Would need to tag a dozen folk, so hoping anyone interested reads it. My views on the SOSFL and its place in Scottish Football are littered across various threads in both my usernames. But firstly a few facts as best I can recall them. The SOSFL clubs have not had a good record in the LL playoff games, that is there in black&white for all to see. SOSFL clubs were in at the inception of the LL when none of the then Junior Leagues appeared willing to sign up. The SOSFL did not put up any objections when the WOSFL was being setup, as the recognised league for the West & South West, they would have had that right I believe. What is the leagues reward for these: somehow they are to blame for the LL's intransigence in not opening up promotion from Tier 6; they alone are holding up the development of the pyramid below Tier 5 by not doing the decent thing and dropping voluntarily to Tier 75 or wherever South football can be ignored, just like it was before the birth of the WOSFL. I see the 11 SOS clubs regularly, with a few months gap over winter there, maybe more than any other. I don't know. So I feel I am in a privileged position to comment on these 11 clubs and their abilities or lack of as some would have it. There is no denying that the SOS clubs are not at the same level as the 2 other Tier 6 leagues in the LL area. How far down you can go before finding a comparable level is open to debate. As I have pointed repeatedly, the time to sort out the pyramid in the west was in 2020, when the WOSFL was being setup. Are you telling me no one thought; " Oh hang on we already have a Tier 6 league covering that area, right let's all sit down and have a discussion to gauge everyone's thoughts on the situation". There was enough 'discussion' when the east was going through its rebirth, but I guess nobody gave any serious thought to the SOSFL and its position in the pyramid. Not until now, that they are causing this almighty traffic jam in the pyramid. The pyramid will only evolve once all the interested party's put aside their own little agendas and fears. What is needed is a coherent, researched and fully thought out plan put forward. Not the half-baked, self-interest rubbish that comes out like conference leagues, b teams and all the other cockamamie crap put forward. What really gets to me are the comments demeaning the south clubs, intimating they don't deserve their place in the pyramid. Some of the comments are pathetic; if you don't want promotion to the LL then go away, if you don't want to take part in our pyramid go join an amateur league. Central-belt superiority drivel. Without rechecking; of the 11 clubs in the league only the one plays in a council cage and have plans in place to upgrade to their own facility. The grounds the clubs occupy are excellent and have good fan, player and other facilities. Clubs are locally run and owned, and decent or good financially. A number with plans and thoughts to holistically upgrade their facilities. No Santa's, Pie or Chicken Men down here thank you very much. All clubs are ingrained and an active part of each of the small communities they are part of. So in conclusion rather than decrying and devauling football in the south do an uncentral-belt thing and recognise there is a Scotland away from the Glasgow- Edinburgh corridor, if you can. But, why change the habit of a lifetime. There's a lot of superflous irrelevant fluff in there, however.... I can't see any comments saying SoS don't deserve a place in the Pyramid or to "go away", nor questioning how well run these clubs are. What I see is comments calling time on the SoS league's status as a tier 6 league, backed-up with evidence of their performances against the top WoS and EoS clubs, and their apparent reluctance to go upto the LL anyway (although that is only based on alleged comments). The equivalent I guess is a WoS 4th Div or an EoS 3rd Division club being catapulted into a play-off for the LL. No Santa's or pie men to be seen there either but it wouldn't end well 99/100. That's just common sense. Perhaps it's the SoS itself who need to make the first step. There's a regular meeting of the 4 leagues (LL, SoS, WoS, EoS), so there's ample opportunity to discuss long term structures and a better level for the SoS and it's clubs to exist at. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
An Absolute Imposter Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 7 minutes ago, Burnieman said: There's a lot of superflous irrelevant fluff in there, however.... I can't see any comments saying SoS don't deserve a place in the Pyramid or to "go away", nor questioning how well run these clubs are. What I see is comments calling time on the SoS league's status as a tier 6 league, backed-up with evidence of their performances against the top WoS and EoS clubs, and their apparent reluctance to go upto the LL anyway (although that is only based on alleged comments). The equivalent I guess is a WoS 4th Div or an EoS 3rd Division club being catapulted into a play-off for the LL. No Santa's or pie men to be seen there either but it wouldn't end well 99/100. That's just common sense. Perhaps it's the SoS itself who need to make the first step. There's a regular meeting of the 4 leagues (LL, SoS, WoS, EoS), so there's ample opportunity to discuss long term structures and a better level for the SoS and it's clubs to exist at. 'superfluous irrelevant' sums up most guff on p&b. I'm not associated with or a fan of any club in the South so don't have any tinted specs on. All I will say is you must not be reading the same stuff I read, or read it differently. There is a constant disdain for all things south on here. The thing is within the SOSFL there is at least 2 maybe even 3 tier levels so to just throw them all in at the bottom tier would be wrong, a proper, wel thought out integration is what is required. The SOSFL I feel have not done themselves any favours in the long run by sticking their head in the sand when both the EOSFL and WOSFL were changing. I know there will be some who will say; look at Threave struggling at Tier 9. A valid comment, that could be countered by pointing out that Threave could quite easily have thrown money at it like 2 well known new clubs in your own EOSFL, one has now died but not before messing around other clubs in the leagues, but that's not how they want to progress. There are plenty of issues in the LL area all should be continually addressed by the 4 leagues. From the outside there doesn't appear any evidence of discussion or advancements. Anyway I want a break from p&b until preseason find it tiring and draining for my old brain, so won't be replying. Not that anything i post is of any great significance. bye for now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnieman Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 (edited) 14 minutes ago, An Absolute Imposter said: 'superfluous irrelevant' sums up most guff on p&b. I'm not associated with or a fan of any club in the South so don't have any tinted specs on. All I will say is you must not be reading the same stuff I read, or read it differently. There is a constant disdain for all things south on here. The thing is within the SOSFL there is at least 2 maybe even 3 tier levels so to just throw them all in at the bottom tier would be wrong, a proper, wel thought out integration is what is required. The SOSFL I feel have not done themselves any favours in the long run by sticking their head in the sand when both the EOSFL and WOSFL were changing. I know there will be some who will say; look at Threave struggling at Tier 9. A valid comment, that could be countered by pointing out that Threave could quite easily have thrown money at it like 2 well known new clubs in your own EOSFL, one has now died but not before messing around other clubs in the leagues, but that's not how they want to progress. There are plenty of issues in the LL area all should be continually addressed by the 4 leagues. From the outside there doesn't appear any evidence of discussion or advancements. Anyway I want a break from p&b until preseason find it tiring and draining for my old brain, so won't be replying. Not that anything i post is of any great significance. bye for now. You keep mentioning "throwing money around" "chicken man" "santas" which is completely missing the point. It's about 95% clubs finding their natural level within the Pyramid. That is currently happening in the EoS. The WoS came into the Pyramid with largely the same structure so clubs are mostly already at their level. Money will always distort it for a few. The SoS as a one division league have suddently found themselves out of their depth at tier 6, and I doubt Dalbeattie were looking forward to the end of season pumping they received, and I doubt next seasons Champs will either. That's not a healthy situation. Would it be better if they could look forward to promotion to say WoS 4th? only they can answer that. Looking forward to your new user name for next season. Edited May 31 by Burnieman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
searchers1963 Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 1 hour ago, Shannon said: The Lowland League really should have been allowed to split into West and East at the formation or when West sides joined but SPFL / Lowland League clearly didnt want this. Also the Junior teams at time didn't get involved in debate to really push for this. It would make much more sense with Scotland's population largely in central belt to have 3 feeder leagues to SPFL with West, East and North. Why should it have happened when the west came in. Superiority in their own heads. Someone else has something better we come in and take over i don't think so. Again not enough west teams licensed either 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spyro Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 18 minutes ago, Burnieman said: You keep mentioning "throwing money around" "chicken man" "santas" which is completely missing the point. It's about 95% clubs finding their natural level within the Pyramid. That is currently happening in the EoS. The WoS came into the Pyramid with largely the same structure so clubs are mostly already at their level. Money will always distort it for a few. The SoS as a one division league have suddently found themselves out of their depth at tier 6, and I doubt Dalbeattie were looking forward to the end of season pumping they received, and I doubt next seasons Champs will either. That's not a healthy situation. Would it be better if they could look forward to promotion to say WoS 4th? only they can answer that. Looking forward to your new user name for next season. Remember to tell me so I can put that one on ignore too 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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