Lowland League General Discussion

[jimbaxters]

4 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

And it wouldn’t work if their results were removed from the table as their opponents would then just treat the matches as friendlies 

But we've been told further up the thread that that's what they are, friendlies. If the B teams really need to be there (which they don't, of course) then fixture them in and those fixtures don't count towards the league.

[GordonS]

7 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

Only the LL winner gets to go into the play off - the B teams are removed from the final table.  That isn’t the case in the WoSFL - unlicensed teams aren’t excluded from the final table and can be champions when a B team can’t be 

They're not removed from the final table.

If you removed them from the final table you could change who then won the league or was relegated.

[GordonS]

2 hours ago, leaguereformer said:

The majority of clubs have no desire or ability to to compete in the SPFL, they only vote on things that guarantee their place in the LL 

East Kilbride, Bo'ness, Tranent, Linlithgow Rose, Cowdenbeath, Albion Rovers, Berwick Rangers, Caledonian Braves and East Stirling all have the desire and at least the potential to play in the SPFL. That's 9 of the 16. Gala have applied for membership 4 times and been unsuccessful, they're not doing well just now but aren't far away. Broxburn might get there soon. Gretna have hosted football as high as the Championship in the recent past and with just another couple of hundred through the gate each week they'd be able to compete consistently.

CSS, Broomhill and Cumbernauld Colts probably don't have the support base for it, though Colts finished a strong 4th (3rd) last season. Stirling Uni are too up and down but when they're up, they could definitely compete in L2.

So I think you're wrong.

[Burnieman]

4 hours ago, leaguereformer said:

For sporting integrity their result should not count, the variance in the team they can field makes it unfair to count their points imo. 

As has been pointed out before, the B teams did not use the most players in the league last season. Gretna used the most last season (over 40), EK not far behind, should we discount their points as well?

Edited August 27 by Burnieman

[Burnieman]

On 17/08/2024 at 21:19, Burnieman said:

Last seasons stats on number of players used;

Gretna FC 2008             42

East Kilbride FC             38

Gala Fairydean Rovers 35

Linlithgow Rose FC       34

University of Stirling      34

Celtic FC B                      34

Civil Service Strollers   34

Berwick Rangers            32

East Stirlingshire            31

Broomhill                         29

Tranent Juniors               29

EDI University                 29

Heart of Midlothian B   28

Bo'ness United               28

Cowdenbeath                 27

Caledonian Braves        27

Albion Rovers                 25

Cumbernauld Colts      23

 

 

On 17/08/2024 at 22:10, Burnieman said:

Yeah but you're implying they're making a lot of changes week-to-week and it's pot luck who you face, that doesn't appear to be the case, it's consistent with other clubs in the league.  There's not actually too much movement between B team and first team during the season either.

The stats also show that "new" players into the club from the previous season for the B teams were one of the lowest in the league ie they're pretty consistent - most of the "new" players will of course be players coming up from U16/18 level and making a handful of appearances.

Hearts used 28 different players, of which 10 played less than 10 games, 7 of them 5 or less, 15 played 20 or more so it seems a fairly consistent core squad of 18-21 players used.  Liam McFarlane (GK) and Callum Sandilands played every single game.

Celtic used 34 different players, of which 15 played less than 10 games, 12 of them 5 or less. 9 played 20 or more games. That's a core squad of 19-22 players used.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/scottish-lowland-football-league/eingesetztespieler/wettbewerb/SC5L/plus/?saison_id=2023&spieltag=38&filter=alle

 

[FairWeatherFan]

34 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

As has been pointed out before, the B teams did not use the most players in the league last season. Gretna used the most last season (over 40), EK not far behind, should we discount their points as well?

Gretna having the higher turnover because they were actively trying to put the best possible team out. 

 

[GordonS]

59 minutes ago, leaguereformer said:

EK have next to no fans just a few business guys ploughing money into them. Caley Braves, Broomhill, Cumbernauld Colts, Stirling Uni etc...have two men and a dug support them. How could they possibly last the test of time in L2 also factor in their grounds is that a good look for professional teams in Scotland?

 

EK with the promised £4m stadium being built, I think a few would be surprised how much the cost of that has went up from the initial proposal, you could safely triple that figure which to me is a non starter especially when they cant fill a what 500 capacity ground?

EK's average league attendance last season was 274, not a million miles behind Stranraer and on a level with many other clubs' seasons in L2. Albion Rovers were under 300 for years in the SPFL. EK's attendances would likely go up by quite a lot if they were in the SPFL and I'm sure they could become comparable to clubs like Clyde. At this level, in relative terms everyone has next to no fans.

You said a majority of clubs had no desire or ability to play in the SPFL, and then to contradict me you named four of the clubs I put in the minority that do currently match your description. If you're not arguing with the others then presumably you agree with me?

Besides, disparaging an entire league because some of its clubs can't look seriously at reaching the level above in the short term them is unfair and illogical.

[Cowden Cowboy]

3 hours ago, jimbaxters said:

But we've been told further up the thread that that's what they are, friendlies. If the B teams really need to be there (which they don't, of course) then fixture them in and those fixtures don't count towards the league.

But they aren’t friendlies when their opponents can win or lose points that count as regards placings

[Cowden Cowboy]

1 hour ago, GordonS said:

They're not removed from the final table.

If you removed them from the final table you could change who then won the league or was relegated.

They are removed from the final table - both B teams are omitted at the end but their results as they impact on the other clubs still are part of the final tallies 

[jimbaxters]

4 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

But they aren’t friendlies when their opponents can win or lose points that count as regards placings

 

3 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

They are removed from the final table - both B teams are omitted at the end but their results as they impact on the other clubs still are part of the final tallies 

Just because that's what happens doesn't make it fair or correct.

[GordonS]

8 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

They are removed from the final table - both B teams are omitted at the end but their results as they impact on the other clubs still are part of the final tallies 

In that case they're not removed from the table. The wording in the Lowland League rules is; "The position of Guest Clubs will be disregarded when deciding final league positions." That means they're not removed from the final table, they're just ignored.

If you find an officially-produced version of the final table without the B teams, I'll eat my words.

Edited August 27 by GordonS

[newcastle broon]

1 hour ago, leaguereformer said:

EK have next to no fans just a few business guys ploughing money into them. Caley Braves, Broomhill, Cumbernauld Colts, Stirling Uni etc...have two men and a dug support them. How could they possibly last the test of time in L2 also factor in their grounds is that a good look for professional teams in Scotland?

 

EK with the promised £4m stadium being built, I think a few would be surprised how much the cost of that has went up from the initial proposal, you could safely triple that figure which to me is a non starter especially when they cant fill a what 500 capacity ground?

Spartans and Edinburgh City weren't big supported clubs before reaching the SPFL where their attendances went up. They've both lasted the test of time in the SPFL.

Why are you obsessed by a crowd w**k when football is won on the park no the terraces?

[Cowden Cowboy]

24 minutes ago, GordonS said:

In that case they're not removed from the table. The wording in the Lowland League rules is; "The position of Guest Clubs will be disregarded when deciding final league positions." That means they're not removed from the final table, they're just ignored.

If you find an officially-produced version of the final table without the B teams, I'll eat my words.

You are trying to split hairs - Cowdenbeath were officially 8th in last season’s table not 10th.  Thus the B teams were effectively removed from the final table - disregarded is just another word for the same concept 

[Cowden Cowboy]

7 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

Spartans and Edinburgh City weren't big supported clubs before reaching the SPFL where their attendances went up. They've both lasted the test of time in the SPFL.

Why are you obsessed by a crowd w**k when football is won on the park no the terraces?

The difference is the teams like Berwick, Cowdenbeath and Albion Rovers have many more fans/well wishers/people with affection and regard for the club than these other teams as they have represented their specific communities for over a century.  Their history and past achievements have links to diaspora all over the world.  Attendances aren’t the same as the number of fans, etc a club has.  East Kilbride haven’t got that link as they haven’t been around long nor have City or Spartans (both City clubs in a city that is Hibs/Hearts focused). 

[GordonS]

8 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

You are trying to split hairs - Cowdenbeath were officially 8th in last season’s table not 10th.  Thus the B teams were effectively removed from the final table - disregarded is just another word for the same concept 

Where does it say Cowdenbeath were 8th?

[Cowden Cowboy]

3 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Where does it say Cowdenbeath were 8th?

In an email communication from the Lowland League 

[GordonS]

2 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

In an email communication from the Lowland League 

Was it sent to someone we don't know that goes to another school?

Plenty of stuff like this on their socials:

[Shannon]

34 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

Spartans and Edinburgh City weren't big supported clubs before reaching the SPFL where their attendances went up. They've both lasted the test of time in the SPFL.

Why are you obsessed by a crowd w**k when football is won on the park no the terraces?

Edinburgh City have been on a bit of a rollercoaster ride in the last few years and nearly went out of business last season so probably not a good example . Their attendances still have went up nearly doubled or more from Lowland League days to be fair. Actually punching above their weight this season at this early stage.

[newcastle broon]

44 minutes ago, Shannon said:

Edinburgh City have been on a bit of a rollercoaster ride in the last few years and nearly went out of business last season so probably not a good example . Their attendances still have went up nearly doubled or more from Lowland League days to be fair. Actually punching above their weight this season at this early stage.

You've just proved my point. City s crowds went up so no reason the likes of Braves Strollers and Uni of Stirling crowds wouldn't go up too if they were good enough to win the LL.

Edited August 27 by newcastle broon

[Redcar]

Albion, Berwick, Beath etc can't argue that they don't deserve to be where they are, whatever their history is. And all of these clubs would grab the cash off any millionaire who takes an interest. 

But, the danger of getting promotion purely on the back of a rich man's whim, is amply illustrated by Gretna - and very nearly by Edinburgh C. If there is not enough interest to generate sufficient match day income and the millionaire is suddenly not there, then it's freefall. 

EK - once they finally claw their way up the slippery pole - will probably generate enough interest to survive without the money men. Others absolutely wouldn't.