Lowland League General Discussion

[GordonS]

6 hours ago, Cannibal said:

Somewhat amazed people are struggling with what I said.  The scottish football league system has existed for over a century. 

Perhaps you all could explain why a league that allows B teams to play in it and actively impedes superior teams from below being promoted to it should be given automatic promotion to that league.  

The pyramid system should see each tier containing teams which are 'better' than the ones below. The onus is on those outside the league to show they are at least attempting to achieve this.  

This is blindingly obvious to most people even without explanation.

 

"My opinions" = "things that are blindingly obvious and don't need an explanation." Aye ok.

Some things you might want to consider if you ever decide things need an explanation.

1. The Scottish Football League has existed for more that a century. The Scottish football league system has existed since 2014. You're confusing the two.

2. The pyramid is still new and lots of teams are yet to find their level. Some have sunk through several tiers like Vale of Leithen and Cowdenbeath, others have risen like Bo'ness Athletic. It needs time to settle.

3. I'm assuming the subtext to your points is the former West of Scotland juniors. The reasons why there are none at tier 5 yet are:

a) they didn't want to join the pyramid until 2020/21, six seasons after it began. If they had joined from the start they would pretty much certainly have joined at tier 5. Now they have to try to get promoted into it, like everyone else south of the Tay. What other possible situation could there have been?

b) the first season didn't produce a champion because of Covid;

c) the only champion they've had that met the pretty reasonable licensing requirements were the incredibly well-resourced Darvel, who turned out not to be as good as Tranent;

d) their only other champion since joining the pyramid doesn't have floodlights, a facility so basic that you find them in the North Caledonian and South of Scotland leagues, and which were enough trouble for Beith as far back at 13 years ago when they had to play Airdrie in a mideek afternoon.

So who's fault is all of that, apart from the West junior clubs themselves?

3. Why do you think there are four former East of Scotland junior team in the Lowland League and two more have been promoted through it, but no former West Juniors have made it?

4. The argument that teams below the Lowland League are obviously better than those in it is not remotely bourn out by competitive results. For example, Broomhill finished 15th in the Lowland League last season but were good enough to stuff Beith 3-1 and Cumnock 3-0 on their own parks in the Scottish Cup. 

5. The two B teams suck. They're not an excuse to disdain the entire league and the 16 other clubs in it.

6. The Lowland League does not "actively impede" anyone from below getting promoted into it. This is sheer delusion. They have a guaranteed promotion spot so long as any one of the champions of the three leagues feeding into it have an entry-level licence.

7. On the other hand, the SPFL does actively impede teams from below. They tried to sabotage Bonnyrigg by introducing a floodlight requirement with only months of the season left, but Bonnyrigg (and Midlothian Council) were quick and well-resourced enough to meet it. For this season they demanded bronze standard be met, again without enough notice and with it not applying to the membership of existing SPFL clubs. 

 

All the regulars in this forum know all of this. Your opinion on this subject is baseless and that's why you got such a bad reaction here.

[Josuke Higashikata]

1 hour ago, tamthebam said:

Another Westie whinging. 

When the LL was set up there were places left for any Central/Ayrshire Juniors who would be interested. A couple of clubs were but had their arms twisted by the SJFA. This is the reason EK, BSC and Cumbernauld got in and not, say, Pollok, Clydebank and Talbot. 

Having seen Beith get taken apart by Bo'ness Ath I'm not sure who these "superior" clubs are. I've been to Shotts v Clydebank this season and am not sure either club would trouble Lithgae, Bo'ness United, Tranent or Broxburn overly. 

Get the B teams out though

Had any West juniors joined the LL and for whatever reason the LL failed, those clubs would have had to restart in the West at the very bottom. There was more than enough reason for clubs not to move, without admonishing the former West junior association of blame. Clydebank - who made no secret of their wish to join senior football - chose not to move. That's a bit different to starting from scratch i.e., EK and CC!

Suppose your post is a step up from the tired "devil's illuminations" posts though. Felt I had to make a point.

Edited August 18 by Josuke Higashikata

[Cannibal]

1 hour ago, GordonS said:

"My opinions" = "things that are blindingly obvious and don't need an explanation." Aye ok.

Some things you might want to consider if you ever decide things need an explanation.

1. The Scottish Football League has existed for more that a century. The Scottish football league system has existed since 2014. You're confusing the two.

2. The pyramid is still new and lots of teams are yet to find their level. Some have sunk through several tiers like Vale of Leithen and Cowdenbeath, others have risen like Bo'ness Athletic. It needs time to settle.

3. I'm assuming the subtext to your points is the former West of Scotland juniors. The reasons why there are none at tier 5 yet are:

a) they didn't want to join the pyramid until 2020/21, six seasons after it began. If they had joined from the start they would pretty much certainly have joined at tier 5. Now they have to try to get promoted into it, like everyone else south of the Tay. What other possible situation could there have been?

b) the first season didn't produce a champion because of Covid;

c) the only champion they've had that met the pretty reasonable licensing requirements were the incredibly well-resourced Darvel, who turned out not to be as good as Tranent;

d) their only other champion since joining the pyramid doesn't have floodlights, a facility so basic that you find them in the North Caledonian and South of Scotland leagues, and which were enough trouble for Beith as far back at 13 years ago when they had to play Airdrie in a mideek afternoon.

So who's fault is all of that, apart from the West junior clubs themselves?

3. Why do you think there are four former East of Scotland junior team in the Lowland League and two more have been promoted through it, but no former West Juniors have made it?

4. The argument that teams below the Lowland League are obviously better than those in it is not remotely bourn out by competitive results. For example, Broomhill finished 15th in the Lowland League last season but were good enough to stuff Beith 3-1 and Cumnock 3-0 on their own parks in the Scottish Cup. 

5. The two B teams suck. They're not an excuse to disdain the entire league and the 16 other clubs in it.

6. The Lowland League does not "actively impede" anyone from below getting promoted into it. This is sheer delusion. They have a guaranteed promotion spot so long as any one of the champions of the three leagues feeding into it have an entry-level licence.

7. On the other hand, the SPFL does actively impede teams from below. They tried to sabotage Bonnyrigg by introducing a floodlight requirement with only months of the season left, but Bonnyrigg (and Midlothian Council) were quick and well-resourced enough to meet it. For this season they demanded bronze standard be met, again without enough notice and with it not applying to the membership of existing SPFL clubs. 

 

All the regulars in this forum know all of this. Your opinion on this subject is baseless and that's why you got such a bad reaction here.

1) No, I'm not confusing the two.  The league system (under whatever name) has existed without any automatic promotion/relegation which is the issue under discussion here.

2)  Yes, the leagues below the SPFL need time to settle so teams find their own level.  Once that has been achieved (ideally as soon as possble) then automatic promotion/relegation seems fair.  It seems we got as far as point 2 of your explanation of why I am wrong to get actual agreement with the point I am making.

3) You tell me - I imagine even more from both sides would have made it in if the league didn't give spaces to B teams.  The fact it took the bulk of teams in the West too long to join the pyramid is not a reason to promote from the much smaller number of teams who fortunately settled in tier 5 first.

4)  And WoSFL teams have also had notable results in the cup that were even better than lowland league teams

5) Yes, they are absolutely a reason to diminish the standing and integrity of the competition for reasons we all know.  In fact, this reason on its own would be enough for me to oppose automatic promotion/relegation.   I didn't actually disdain any clubs in it directly (except I am happy to slag off any of the teams that voted for it).

6) They could easily open up more spaces voluntarily (for example those given to B teams)  - I mean this is exactly what you think the SPFL should do.

7) So Bonnyrigg got up, and so would have EK.   The Lowland League of course also has its own requirements to fulfil before teams can be promoted.  And still thinks it is valid for a non-champion to be put forward to the play-off when the league winner is ineligible for promotion - something it doesn't allow the league below.   But yes shifting the goalposts late on shouldn't be allowed.  I wouldn't mistake my opposition to automatic promotion for a defence of the SPFL.   

[Cowden Cowboy]

5 minutes ago, Cannibal said:

1) No, I'm not confusing the two.  The league system (under whatever name) has existed without any automatic promotion/relegation which is the issue under discussion here.

2)  Yes, the leagues below the SPFL need time to settle so teams find their own level.  Once that has been achieved (ideally as soon as possble) then automatic promotion/relegation seems fair.  It seems we got as far as point 2 of your explanation of why I am wrong to get actual agreement with the point I am making.

3) You tell me - I imagine even more from both sides would have made it in if the league didn't give spaces to B teams.  The fact it took the bulk of teams in the West too long to join the pyramid is not a reason to promote from the much smaller number of teams who fortunately settled in tier 5 first.

4)  And WoSFL teams have also had notable results in the cup that were even better than lowland league teams

5) Yes, they are absolutely a reason to diminish the standing and integrity of the competition for reasons we all know.  In fact, this reason on its own would be enough for me to oppose automatic promotion/relegation.   I didn't actually disdain any clubs in it directly (except I am happy to slag off any of the teams that voted for it).

6) They could easily open up more spaces voluntarily (for example those given to B teams)  - I mean this is exactly what you think the SPFL should do.

7) So Bonnyrigg got up, and so would have EK.   The Lowland League of course also has its own requirements to fulfil before teams can be promoted.  And still thinks it is valid for a non-champion to be put forward to the play-off when the league winner is ineligible for promotion - something it doesn't allow the league below.   But yes shifting the goalposts late on shouldn't be allowed.  I wouldn't mistake my opposition to automatic promotion for a defence of the SPFL.   

7 is not correct.  Only the champion club can be put forward by the LL 

[Cyclizine]

1 hour ago, Josuke Higashikata said:

Had any West juniors joined the LL and for whatever reason the LL failed, those clubs would have had to restart in the West at the very bottom.

A situation which was well within the remit of the SJFA and West Region, who could've come up with a solution. Funnily enough, they didn't want to do so and preferred to use it as a threat to those interested in the Lowland League.

[Cannibal]

Just now, Cowden Cowboy said:

7 is not correct.  Only the champion club can be put forward by the LL 

Excuse my loose language. 

The LL thinks it is valid to call a team that doesn't win the league 'champions' in order to be put into a playoff.  This is the meritocracy we need.

[Cowden Cowboy]

3 minutes ago, Cannibal said:

Excuse my loose language. 

The LL thinks it is valid to call a team that doesn't win the league 'champions' in order to be put into a playoff.  This is the meritocracy we need.

Well you may not agree with it but the B teams are not League members and the LL rule is that they are formally deleted from the final table at the end of the season - thus they can’t win the League and be champions 

[Cannibal]

4 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

Well you may not agree with it but the B teams are not League members and the LL rule is that they are formally deleted from the final table at the end of the season - thus they can’t win the League and be champions 

The results obviously aren't removed though.  They could win the league - just not be Champions.  We know this anyway.  It just seems amazing how these things are accepted but there is also astonishment/offence taken when people question the competition's merit.

[rockson]

23 minutes ago, Cannibal said:

 

6 is also wrong. They can't expand beyond 16 clubs (excluding B teams) because the SFA prevents that.

[Josuke Higashikata]

18 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

A situation which was well within the remit of the SJFA and West Region, who could've come up with a solution. Funnily enough, they didn't want to do so and preferred to use it as a threat to those interested in the Lowland League.

Not something I would use against clubs however. Instead the association. I don’t forget the old days of being told SJFA members shouldn’t be in the Scottish FA Cup.

Edited August 18 by Josuke Higashikata

[Cannibal]

3 minutes ago, rockson said:

6 is also wrong. They can't expand beyond 16 clubs (excluding B teams) because the SFA prevents that.

I would be interested to see this rule.  Genuinely.

[Cowden Cowboy]

11 minutes ago, Cannibal said:

I would be interested to see this rule.  Genuinely.

The SFA refused a rule change to remove the 16 limit.  B teams can’t win the League or be champions as only members can - on the last day of the season they are removed from the League table thus they don’t end up topping the table 

[Burnieman]

1 hour ago, Cannibal said:

1) No, I'm not confusing the two.  The league system (under whatever name) has existed without any automatic promotion/relegation which is the issue under discussion here.

2)  Yes, the leagues below the SPFL need time to settle so teams find their own level.  Once that has been achieved (ideally as soon as possble) then automatic promotion/relegation seems fair.  It seems we got as far as point 2 of your explanation of why I am wrong to get actual agreement with the point I am making.

3) You tell me - I imagine even more from both sides would have made it in if the league didn't give spaces to B teams.  The fact it took the bulk of teams in the West too long to join the pyramid is not a reason to promote from the much smaller number of teams who fortunately settled in tier 5 first.

4)  And WoSFL teams have also had notable results in the cup that were even better than lowland league teams

5) Yes, they are absolutely a reason to diminish the standing and integrity of the competition for reasons we all know.  In fact, this reason on its own would be enough for me to oppose automatic promotion/relegation.   I didn't actually disdain any clubs in it directly (except I am happy to slag off any of the teams that voted for it).

6) They could easily open up more spaces voluntarily (for example those given to B teams)  - I mean this is exactly what you think the SPFL should do.

7) So Bonnyrigg got up, and so would have EK.   The Lowland League of course also has its own requirements to fulfil before teams can be promoted.  And still thinks it is valid for a non-champion to be put forward to the play-off when the league winner is ineligible for promotion - something it doesn't allow the league below.   But yes shifting the goalposts late on shouldn't be allowed.  I wouldn't mistake my opposition to automatic promotion for a defence of the SPFL.   

Settle down.  It may come as a complete surprise, but these topics have all been done to death on here for the last 6-7 years and all of a sudden here you are, a Clyde fan of all people, shouting the odds.

The SFL was closed shop since it's inception.

The SPFL should relegate the bottom club in L2 automatically. The worst SPFL club does not deserve a second chance via a play-off.

The Lowland League should relegate more clubs to the tier below and set an example to the SPFL.

The Lowland League cannot expand beyond 16 permanent clubs as the SFA will not sanction it, the presence of B teams has zero bearing on that. If B teams left tomorrow, it would return to a 16 team league.

The two B teams will remain in the LL for the next 3 seasons.  After that, who knows.  They each pay £50k each to the LL per season.

The WoSFL was slow on the uptake but it's getting there. They should start to produce licenced Champions which should be dominant over the EoS Champs in the play-off as they have lost a good chunk of their stronger teams already to LL and SPFL.

That kinda sums up the current situation and as has been mentioned, these topics are nothing new on here so maybe listen to what people are saying.

 

Edited August 18 by Burnieman

[Cannibal]

19 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

The SFA refused a rule change to remove the 16 limit.  B teams can’t win the League or be champions as only members can - on the last day of the season they are removed from the League table thus they don’t end up topping the table 

It would be good to read some info about the SFA blocking an attempt to change the 16 team limit but I will take your word for it.  

Ok - under the rules potentially three B teams could finish the season with more points than the team who ends up being called Champions.  Not sure how this is meant to be a positive thing for the league but we do understand it

[Cannibal]

6 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

Settle down.  It may come as a complete surprise, but these topics have all been done to death on here for the last 6-7 years and all of a sudden here you are, a Clyde fan of all people, shouting the odds.

The SFL was closed shop since it's inception.

The SPFL should relegate the bottom club in L2 automatically. The worst SPFL club does not deserve a second chance via a play-off.

The Lowland League should relegate more clubs to the tier below and set an example to the SPFL.

The Lowland League cannot expand beyond 16 permanent clubs as the SFA will not sanction it, the presence of B teams has zero bearing on that. If B teams left tomorrow, it would return to a 16 team league.

The two B teams will remain in the LL for the next 3 seasons.  After that, who knows.  They each pay £50k each to the LL per season.

The WoSFL was slow on the uptake but it's getting there. They should start to produce licenced Champions which should be dominant over the EoS Champs in the play-off as they have lost a good chunk of their stronger teams already to LL and SPFL.

That kinda sums up the current situation and as has been mentioned, these topics are nothing new on here so maybe listen to what people are saying.

 

Well aware they have been done to death.  That was why I was surprised people were still claiming there should be automatic promotion.

The regurgitation of the reasons it would be ludicrous to award the LL with that is purely down to the weird defensive response my simple comment got.

Simply stating the bottom team in SPFL2 should be relegated does not make it true

 

Edited to add: as for the rest of your post - good and I hope the leagues do continue to make the progress needed as a proper pyramid is in all our interests

Edited August 18 by Cannibal

[Burnieman]

Just now, Cannibal said:

Simply stating the bottom team in SPFL2 should be relegated does not make it true.

So you don't think the bottom club in a league should be relegated, despite that being the case in the other 3 SPFL divisions?

What kind of Pyramid are you proposing exactly and how do you think that looks to everyone reading your posts on here?  It's self preservation from a Clyde fan spooked by almost finishing......bottom.

Ask any football fan if they think the club that finishes bottom of the pile in any league should go down, I bet I can guess what the majority response will be.

The Lowland League aren't perfect - far from it - but at least they relegate their bottom club*  (*in most scenarios).

The WoS and EoS Premiers relegate upto 4 clubs throughout their divisions.

[Sparticus]

The b teams need to be taken out of the pyramid.

No amount of financial gain is worth having them as guest clubs.

The other UK leagues seem to manage fine without b teams.

 

[Cannibal]

2 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

So you don't think the bottom club in a league should be relegated, despite that being the case in the other 3 SPFL divisions?

What kind of Pyramid are you proposing exactly and how do you think that looks to everyone reading your posts on here?  It's self preservation from a Clyde fan spooked by almost finishing......bottom.

Ask any football fan if they think the club that finishes bottom of the pile in any league should go down, I bet I can guess what the majority response will be.

The Lowland League aren't perfect - far from it - but at least they relegate their bottom club*  (*in most scenarios).

The WoS and EoS Premiers relegate upto 4 clubs throughout their divisions.

I think the SPFL should open its trapdoor once the leagues below have had a chance to settle such that the best teams are at the top.  I think most are in agreement that we are not there yet.  Pretty uncontroversial to be honest.  

The playoff allows some mobility in the meantime. If Clyde had came bottom and lost it then I'd have accepted it and not changed my tune on this matter but i'd have been wanting to improve the league I was in rather than pretend it is not devalued (by the many things which have been done to death)

[newcastle broon]

8 minutes ago, Sparticus said:

The b teams need to be taken out of the pyramid.

No amount of financial gain is worth having them as guest clubs.

The other UK leagues seem to manage fine without b teams.

 

How much are Spartans gaining from the ground rental? 

[Burnieman]

Just now, Cannibal said:

I think the SPFL should open its trapdoor once the leagues below have had a chance to settle such that the best teams are at the top.  I think most are in agreement that we are not there yet.  Pretty uncontroversial to be honest.  

The playoff allows some mobility in the meantime. If Clyde had came bottom and lost it then I'd have accepted it and not changed my tune on this matter but i'd have been wanting to improve the league I was in rather than pretend it is not devalued (by the many things which have been done to death)

The best teams are already in the SPFL aren't they, Kelty Hearts, Edinburgh City, Bonnyrigg Rose, Spartans & Cove Rangers.   Spartans in a League Cup QF I believe.  Kelty Hearts beat Hibs last month, some of them are in the division above Clyde.  The LL has 4 ex-SPFL teams, Brechin City in the HL.   

So I'm unsure what you mean by "such that the best teams are at the top" top of what? those clubs mentioned have already proven to be better than many in the SPFL.  The case has already been made for auto relegation of the bottom club.