The Queen of the South thread

[Skyline Drifter]

Unfortunately his stubborn attempts to put his mark on the team did more damage than good.

In what way? I know I bite at this every time somebody posts it but that's nonsense.

McIntyre got significant criticism from fans in his first 4 months for doing four things that were not popular. For me he has been proven correct on every one of them.

He brought in Dowie who has been our best defender for two and a half seasons after a slow start.

He chose to play Russell wide left. There are still those who disagree with that but he has proven highly effective in that role.

He left the very popular Mitchell out when he wasnt playing well.

And he brought in McShane once he proved his fitness. What a player he became and we have really missed him this year.

None of those things damaged the team. In the case of the Dowie one there was maybe some time before it clicked but we were better for it after a few months.

[die hard doonhamer]

In what way? I know I bite at this every time somebody posts it but that's nonsense.

McIntyre got significant criticism from fans in his first 4 months for doing four things that were not popular. For me he has been proven correct on every one of them.

He brought in Dowie who has been our best defender for two and a half seasons after a slow start.

He chose to play Russell wide left. There are still those who disagree with that but he has proven highly effective in that role.

He left the very popular Mitchell out when he wasnt playing well.

And he brought in McShane once he proved his fitness. What a player he became and we have really missed him this year.

None of those things damaged the team. In the case of the Dowie one there was maybe some time before it clicked but we were better for it after a few months.

The defining memory of this accusation against McIntyre was the cup replay against st mirren. We were losing about mid way through the second half, had made no changes, and he stood on the sideline literally shrugging his shoulders.

I don't agree with the point made in general, but I can see that it does have some merit.

[Monkey Tennis]

Whilst I think AJ probably is a very good manager, or certainly will be in the future, there's no denying that he is yet to prove it at any sort of decent level. I think Dunfermline was an excellent move for him and I'm looking forward to seeing how he does next season.

He was certainly the catalyst for what has been a very successful period for us. Jim McIntyre continued his work, before James Fowler progressed us even further

I agree with the above until the last bit, where you completely lose me.

I think there's possibly a decent argument for sticking with Fowler, but in what possible way can he be said to have "progressed us even further" than Johnston and McIntyre?

Have I just been whooshed?

[Monkey Tennis]

In what way? I know I bite at this every time somebody posts it but that's nonsense.

McIntyre got significant criticism from fans in his first 4 months for doing four things that were not popular. For me he has been proven correct on every one of them.

He brought in Dowie who has been our best defender for two and a half seasons after a slow start.

He chose to play Russell wide left. There are still those who disagree with that but he has proven highly effective in that role.

He left the very popular Mitchell out when he wasnt playing well.

And he brought in McShane once he proved his fitness. What a player he became and we have really missed him this year.

None of those things damaged the team. In the case of the Dowie one there was maybe some time before it clicked but we were better for it after a few months.

Neither of us can prove we were right, but I think the failure to play Russell in the role he'd been acquired for, probably did us damage that season.

Dowie has indeed proved to be a good acquisition, but Durnan was the guy who eventually earned an upward move and he got left out early on, as did Mitchell, although his injury difficulties played a part.

McShane improved and has done well in his career, but I think you're overstating his contribution.

Another blight on McInytyre of course (although it's separate from the stubbornness charge) was the Antell affair. Goalkeeper had to be got right and couldn't have been got more wrong.

[palmy_cammy]

I believe that under Fowler we amassed our highest points total at this level. No mean feat when the league included Hearts, Hibs and Rangers.

His fourth place finish saw us finish "best of the rest" which is probably as good as could be expected, perhaps even an overachievement as I'm sure Falkirk would have a bigger budget than us, I'm not sure about Raith.

McIntyre also led us to fourth, but most agree that was an underachievement in the circumstances.

James Fowler also beat Premiership opponents in the cup which is a complete rarity for a Queens manager.

That to me is taking us up a level to anything achieved by JM or AJ.

[Monkey Tennis]

I believe that under Fowler we amassed our highest points total at this level. No mean feat when the league included Hearts, Hibs and Rangers.

His fourth place finish saw us finish "best of the rest" which is probably as good as could be expected, perhaps even an overachievement as I'm sure Falkirk would have a bigger budget than us, I'm not sure about Raith.

McIntyre also led us to fourth, but most agree that was an underachievement in the circumstances.

James Fowler also beat Premiership opponents in the cup which is a complete rarity for a Queens manager.

That to me is taking us up a level to anything achieved by JM or AJ.

Right, I see what you mean now. In the immediate aftermath of McIntyre's departure, we did well under Fowler.

Have the events of the back half of his tenure to date, not offset some of this progress a little, though?

[Sloop John B]

I believe that under Fowler we amassed our highest points total at this level. No mean feat when the league included Hearts, Hibs and Rangers.

His fourth place finish saw us finish "best of the rest" which is probably as good as could be expected, perhaps even an overachievement as I'm sure Falkirk would have a bigger budget than us, I'm not sure about Raith.

McIntyre also led us to fourth, but most agree that was an underachievement in the circumstances.

James Fowler also beat Premiership opponents in the cup which is a complete rarity for a Queens manager.

That to me is taking us up a level to anything achieved by JM or AJ.

 

Johnston beat Hibs in the league Cup IIRC, not that it is much of an achievement anymore tbh.

 

We were buried from the title race after the start we made, we also struggled to win the head to heads against full time teams. Plus ca change. 

 

I've come to the school of thought that McIntyre was good if you wanted to build a squad, whilst Fowler was more he could get the best out of the players that were already there.

[qos_75]

James Fowler also beat Premiership opponents in the cup which is a complete rarity for a Queens manager.

That to me is taking us up a level to anything achieved by JM or AJ.

A minor point but Johnston's side knocked SPL Hibs out of the League Cup. A 1-0 defeat in the next round against a very good Dundee United. A further 1-0 defeat away to Killie in the Scottish. I am sure we were down to 10 men in the first 10 minutes or so of that game.

[Sloop John B]

A minor point but Johnston's side knocked SPL Hibs out of the League Cup. A 1-0 defeat in the next round against a very good Dundee United. A further 1-0 defeat away to Killie in the Scottish. I am sure we were down to 10 men in the first 10 minutes or so of that game.

 

More like the first minute, I'm sure the red got overturned as well. Does Mike Tumilty still referee?

[Monkey Tennis]

A minor point but Johnston's side knocked SPL Hibs out of the League Cup. A 1-0 defeat in the next round against a very good Dundee United. A further 1-0 defeat away to Killie in the Scottish. I am sure we were down to 10 men in the first 10 minutes or so of that game.

Try first two minutes.

We lost it 2-1.

[qos_75]

Who was it that was sent off?

[Dougie Mills]

Who was it that was sent off?

McKenna I think

[palmy_cammy]

Right, I see what you mean now. In the immediate aftermath of McIntyre's departure, we did well under Fowler.Have the events of the back half of his tenure to date, not offset some of this progress a little, though?

It's all very well saying Fowler only did well because he inherited a good squad, but so did McIntyre and he's criticised for not utilising it fully. Fowler does and it is used against him!

There are countless other examples of managers making a right mess and undoing their predecessors good work.

Football is cyclical and Fowler has taken us on at the end of a successful cycle. As I said in my original post, it was started by Johnston, continued by McInytre and reached its peak last season.

As this season saw so many changes I don't think it's fair to view it as a continuation of the past few years. I think it is more likely to be the start of a new cycle (I'm overusing the word but I can't think of a better one!). Obviously this season has been far from perfect but it's hardly been a disaster either. Our troubles weren't exactly unforeseen either.

Sticking with this "cycle" idea. If relegation was the starting point for the last period, which saw consecutive fourth place finishes. Then wherever we end up this season could be viewed as the starting point for the next era. That's a huge improvement, and it follows that if we improve at a similar rate to before then we should be in good shape.

All ifs, buts and maybes of course.

[palmy_cammy]

A minor point but Johnston's side knocked SPL Hibs out of the League Cup. A 1-0 defeat in the next round against a very good Dundee United. A further 1-0 defeat away to Killie in the Scottish. I am sure we were down to 10 men in the first 10 minutes or so of that game.

Point taken although I think a P&B Select could have beaten Pat Fenlon's Hibs!

Partick were of course a Premiership team in waiting when we beat them in the Challenge Cup as well.

[Skyline Drifter]

Neither of us can prove we were right, but I think the failure to play Russell in the role he'd been acquired for, probably did us damage that season. Dowie has indeed proved to be a good acquisition, but Durnan was the guy who eventually earned an upward move and he got left out early on, as did Mitchell, although his injury difficulties played a part.McShane improved and has done well in his career, but I think you're overstating his contribution.Another blight on McInytyre of course (although it's separate from the stubbornness charge) was the Antell affair. Goalkeeper had to be got right and couldn't have been got more wrong.

Durnan was left out about twice. The idea that he was routinely left out for Dowie is one of those urban myths repeated so often everyone takes it as fact but it really wasnt.

I dont agree with you about Russell and if anything I am understating McShane's contribution. Of all the players to leave us we miss him most for me.

Antell is a fair criticism though, I will accept that. In his defence a combination of Johnston and Robinson had left us lacking options by then and he had decided not to take Grant Adam. However the Antell signing really didnt work. To be fair to McIntyre he realised it and addressed it. Clark very much did work.

[Skyline Drifter]

Johnston beat Hibs in the league Cup IIRC, not that it is much of an achievement anymore tbh.

We were buried from the title race after the start we made, we also struggled to win the head to heads against full time teams. Plus ca change.

I've come to the school of thought that McIntyre was good if you wanted to build a squad, whilst Fowler was more he could get the best out of the players that were already there.

McIntyre's team knocked the holders and Premiership side St Mirren out of the League Cup too and were damned unlucky not to knock the same side out of the Scottish Cup in a 2-2 draw before comfortably losing the replay.

Not that I disagree with the general point but Johnston, McIntyre and Fowler all knocked one top league side out of cups. The latter two knocking out the holders.

Also McIntyre's side couldnt get results off Dundee, Hamilton or Falkirk. Thats not generic to full time sides. They regularly beat Raith and Livi.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Skyline Drifter

[HoBNob]

. This was the first season as the only full time team that the Pars and considering the amount of players Johnston was able to bring in, you just had to be somewhat competent rather than the duds that went before him.

He's still only proven himself at being able to get out of League One but considering that Dunfermline are spending again he has a decent chance to do well again this season.

The reason Johnston was able to bring in so many players was because immediately after joining he released about 18 players, everyone who was out of contract was let go. Think he inevitably brought in about 10, he built up the whole squad from scratch, and you can genuinely say not a single one of them was a dud.

If your whole squad got released would you have faith in Fowler bringing in able replacements? Judging by this record I wouldn't, does that mean he's not somewhat competent? Likewise being the highest goalscorers in Britain with one of the best defences while also improving Faissail an incredible amount is ever so slightly above somewhat competent.

He's also proven himself at managing to avoid relegation at Kilmarnock, considering what he worked under that's pretty decent. When he left they were 6 points of the top six with a game in hand while being 10 points clear of 11th, again with a game in hand. Also 16 points ahead of bottom place.

And we're a football club, we've always been spending, I don't think we've ever spent less than what we have this season though. Pretty good going, with higher attendances and the lifeline we will naturally have more money than Queens though.

.

, whilst Fowler was more he could get the best out of the players that were already there.

Like Kerr and Baird? Kerr was good under McIntyre.

[qos_75]

The reason Johnston was able to bring in so many players was because immediately after joining he released about 18 players, everyone who was out of contract was let go. Think he inevitably brought in about 10, he built up the whole squad from scratch, and you can genuinely say not a single one of them was a dud.

If your whole squad got released would you have faith in Fowler bringing in able replacements? Judging by this record I wouldn't, does that mean he's not somewhat competent? Likewise being the highest goalscorers in Britain with one of the best defences while also improving Faissail an incredible amount is ever so slightly above somewhat competent.

He's also proven himself at managing to avoid relegation at Kilmarnock, considering what he worked under that's pretty decent. When he left they were 6 points of the top six with a game in hand while being 10 points clear of 11th, again with a game in hand. Also 16 points ahead of bottom place.

And we're a football club, we've always been spending, I don't think we've ever spent less than what we have this season though. Pretty good going, with higher attendances and the lifeline we will naturally have more money than Queens though.

Like Kerr and Baird? Kerr was good under McIntyre.

For me the Pars won a watch when they hired Johnston. He is quality manager. I think he jumped ship too soon when he left us, particularly for the club he left us for. I really do think we would have finished higher than we did (4th) had he remained. Of course we will never know.

No disrespect to Killie (I like them and their fans) but it was common knowledge they were struggling and their chairman was a bit meh to say the least.

Personally, I think the pars will challenge for a play off next season and I would not be surprised if they secured one.

[Monkey Tennis]

Durnan was left out about twice. The idea that he was routinely left out for Dowie is one of those urban myths repeated so often everyone takes it as fact but it really wasnt.

I dont agree with you about Russell and if anything I am understating McShane's contribution. Of all the players to leave us we miss him most for me.

Antell is a fair criticism though, I will accept that. In his defence a combination of Johnston and Robinson had left us lacking options by then and he had decided not to take Grant Adam. However the Antell signing really didnt work. To be fair to McIntyre he realised it and addressed it. Clark very much did work.

I agree that we miss McShane. The hole left in that area of the field has been the hardest one to adequately fill. Mind you, Reilly's energy up front, also enabled us to play a bit differently as a team. Our lack of goals (until very recently) owes plenty to both absences.

I was just querying the "what a player" line. It seemed a bit OTT to me and still does.

[Monkey Tennis]

It's all very well saying Fowler only did well because he inherited a good squad, but so did McIntyre and he's criticised for not utilising it fully. Fowler does and it is used against him!

There are countless other examples of managers making a right mess and undoing their predecessors good work.

Football is cyclical and Fowler has taken us on at the end of a successful cycle. As I said in my original post, it was started by Johnston, continued by McInytre and reached its peak last season.

As this season saw so many changes I don't think it's fair to view it as a continuation of the past few years. I think it is more likely to be the start of a new cycle (I'm overusing the word but I can't think of a better one!). Obviously this season has been far from perfect but it's hardly been a disaster either. Our troubles weren't exactly unforeseen either.

Sticking with this "cycle" idea. If relegation was the starting point for the last period, which saw consecutive fourth place finishes. Then wherever we end up this season could be viewed as the starting point for the next era. That's a huge improvement, and it follows that if we improve at a similar rate to before then we should be in good shape.

All ifs, buts and maybes of course.

All pretty fair, I suppose.

I wasn't so much attacking Fowler for inheriting a decent squad though.

In truth, I'd been overlooking the fact that he was in charge for the bulk of last season, when I was addressing your comment about progressing further under him. In the short term, I suppose we did.

You're right in saying that this season hasn't been a disaster, but it's not been good.

You, more than most have been saying the players aren't terribly good, rather than just haven't been effectively deployed.

If Fowler's acquisitions have been poorish, it surely can't lead to that much faith that we're on the upward part of the latest cycle.