Birth rates / Fertility

[Satoshi]

14 hours ago, badgerthewitness said:

I think the moral choice would be providing the domestic worker with a living wage, time off, training opportunities, health care etc. I hope your upstairs-downstairs paradigm makes allowance for such basic human rights.

As well as a plan ticket home on an annual basis. Good you agree the moral choice is hiring them.

And certainly no upstairs downstairs paradigm on my part, I'm a British republican and egalitarian, there will be no curtseying. It will be a regular person doing a job without any superiority complex on any side.

Not everyone necessarily wants training opportunities in my experience.

14 hours ago, hk blues said:

And therein lies the real problem - I assume you are well-versed in how badly a significant minority are treated by their employers and not only the local families? And how do you qualify a "fair wage" - based on local market rates, home country rates or something else?  

I have no moral issue with the system but there are some deep-rooted social issues surrounding it.  

Sadly yes, and there is very much a racial element to it as well. For me fair wage would be asking them what they want to be paid and either giving them that (or more).

For me there are deep rooted issues full stop, and very much like any migrant worker, it can be part of the solution or part of the problem. If done right it's part of the solution, if bonded labour and workers mistreated it's part of the problem.

But again, good we have got over the initial perspective (not from you) that's it morally wrong to have a domestic worker. 

[hk blues]

18 hours ago, coprolite said:

You're in the Philippines right? 

My work has recently started employing in the Philippines on recommendation from an Australian firm that employs several people over there. These are qualified professionals doing jobs that we have shortages of in the UK and are paid well by local standards (so they tell us). 

This isn't outsourcing, routine admin or telesales. 

It's not ideal for domestic life, working UK hours, but it's not as bad as going to the Gulf to be mistreated. 

It's only the last five years or so that tech has made this a feasible arrangement. 

Are you hearing much about this sort of thing increasing? What's the view from the other side? 

I assume that's in Manilla? The Philippine's has been slow off the mark in terms of opening up for "ex-pat type employment".  This is for 2 main reasons IMO - the arrogance of companies here who think local talent are able to do everything and anything that experts from other countries can do - they cannot!  And, the simple complexity of operating here for foreign companies and employing foreigners. 

  Basically, the wealthy families who kinda run the show here are very happy with how things operate and have no intention or incentive to open things up.

Great to live, less so to work I'd say.

 

[vikingTON]

11 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I didn't say any of those things so do go away you tiresome little twerp.

^^^ sobbing uncontrollably

 

[coprolite]

11 minutes ago, hk blues said:

I assume that's in Manilla? The Philippine's has been slow off the mark in terms of opening up for "ex-pat type employment".  This is for 2 main reasons IMO - the arrogance of companies here who think local talent are able to do everything and anything that experts from other countries can do - they cannot!  And, the simple complexity of operating here for foreign companies and employing foreigners. 

  Basically, the wealthy families who kinda run the show here are very happy with how things operate and have no intention or incentive to open things up.

Great to live, less so to work I'd say.

 

Yes, it's Manilla. We're not sending people there though. We're remotely emoying Phlilpinos to do UK work. 

There's a bit of a skills gap but the work ethic is amazing. 

[hk blues]

5 hours ago, Satoshi said:

As well as a plan ticket home on an annual basis. Good you agree the moral choice is hiring them.

And certainly no upstairs downstairs paradigm on my part, I'm a British republican and egalitarian, there will be no curtseying. It will be a regular person doing a job without any superiority complex on any side.

Not everyone necessarily wants training opportunities in my experience.

Sadly yes, and there is very much a racial element to it as well. For me fair wage would be asking them what they want to be paid and either giving them that (or more).

For me there are deep rooted issues full stop, and very much like any migrant worker, it can be part of the solution or part of the problem. If done right it's part of the solution, if bonded labour and workers mistreated it's part of the problem.

But again, good we have got over the initial perspective (not from you) that's it morally wrong to have a domestic worker. 

Whilst it is admirable to pay significantly above the market rate, this can bring an entirely unexpected negative consequence i.e. being seen as a soft touch with everything that brings.  The same goes for overall "treatment" of domestic helpers etc.

For me, the above is much more of a "problem" than any moral issue - knowing where to draw the line.  I mingled with both sides of the equation in Hong Kong and can absolutely see how difficult balancing the working relationship can be.  I'd like to say this was down to the old "They pretend to pay me and I pretend to work" scenario but it applied even in cases where the salary being paid was 3 or 4 x the going rate.  

For me, I'd have had a Domestic Helper if I had no alternative but only in that circumstance, never as a convenience because it is often anything but.

 

[hk blues]

13 minutes ago, coprolite said:

Yes, it's Manilla. We're not sending people there though. We're remotely emoying Phlilpinos to do UK work. 

There's a bit of a skills gap but the work ethic is amazing. 

Ok, got it.

The skills gap is a given based on the generally lower level of education here but with incentives the better individuals are trainable.  The work ethic is an interesting one as i've heard this from others but mostly for Filipinos working abroad whilst my own experience here is quite different (to put it politely).

Howe about the pay differential between local and UK staff?  

[coprolite]

3 minutes ago, hk blues said:

Ok, got it.

The skills gap is a given based on the generally lower level of education here but with incentives the better individuals are trainable.  The work ethic is an interesting one as i've heard this from others but mostly for Filipinos working abroad whilst my own experience here is quite different (to put it politely).

Howe about the pay differential between local and UK staff?  

They're paid considerably less than UK staff but at the top of the local market range (apparently - i'm not involved in that bit). 

It's a bit odd having people on the team who are never in the office, but as ~95% of meetings are VCs now it doesn't make that much difference. 

 

[hk blues]

15 minutes ago, coprolite said:

They're paid considerably less than UK staff but at the top of the local market range (apparently - i'm not involved in that bit). 

It's a bit odd having people on the team who are never in the office, but as ~95% of meetings are VCs now it doesn't make that much difference. 

 

Cheers.

Other than the time difference such an arrangement should work perfectly.  

[Monkey Tennis]

1 hour ago, virginton said:

^^^ sobbing uncontrollably

 

Are you not about 30 years of age by now?

It's a bit embarrassing that you're still coming out with this stuff.

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Are you not about 30 years of age by now?

It's a bit embarrassing that you're still coming out with this stuff.

You're in your 50s or something and still seem to think that everyone who doesn't explicitly agree with your worldview is a right-wing Tory, so pipe down. 

[SuperSaints1877]

15 minutes ago, virginton said:

You're in your 50s or something and still seem to think that everyone who doesn't explicitly agree with your worldview is a right-wing Tory, so pipe down. 

You’re unlikely to hit 50. You Eldorado drinking soap dodging bin dipper.

You should respect your elders. 

[Monkey Tennis]

59 minutes ago, virginton said:

You're in your 50s or something and still seem to think that everyone who doesn't explicitly agree with your worldview is a right-wing Tory, so pipe down. 

No I don't.

Oaksoft was definitely coming at this from the right though - he generally does.

There was certainly nothing communal about his take, rendering the silly wee flight of fancy you took us on about leftist stances, desperately irrelevant.

[Theroadlesstravelled]

[effeffsee_the2nd]

18 hours ago, coprolite said:

They're paid considerably less than UK staff but at the top of the local market range (apparently - i'm not involved in that bit). 

It's a bit odd having people on the team who are never in the office, but as ~95% of meetings are VCs now it doesn't make that much difference. 

 

f**k me if i didn't say on the covid thread that this will become widespread and working from home was a case of be careful what you wish for!

[Satoshi]

1 hour ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

f**k me if i didn't say on the covid thread that this will become widespread and working from home was a case of be careful what you wish for!

If your job can be easily outsourced  whether you work from home or the office will be irrelevant.

In a globalised world it will come for all of us, skill up. If someone is available and will do the same job for less it's only a matter of time.