MazzyStar Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 8 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said: So where does "the burden or proof" rest on this one? Guilty by association imo 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 (edited) I've got an actual scriptural question as opposed to Ontological one In Exodus there's the familiar 10 plagues of Egypt story where God sends a plague to persuade the Pharaoh to free the Hebrews, the hard hearted Pharaoh doesn't budge and things escalate to the next plague. It goes through 10 iterations and finally the Pharaoh cracks For the first five this hard heartedness is described as simply being his nature or he has "hardened his heart" which suggests a certain amount of agency as if he was considering folding. The Plague of Blood Exodus 7:22 But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh’s heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said. The Plague of Frogs Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said. The Plague of Gnats Exodus 8:19 The magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hard and he would not listen, just as the Lord had said. The Plague of Flies Exodus 8:32 But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go. The Plague on Livestock Exodus 9:7 Pharaoh investigated and found that not even one of the animals of the Israelites had died. Yet his heart was unyielding and he would not let the people go. But over the last five the situation subtly changes The Plague of Boils Exodus 9:12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses. The Plague of Hail Exodus 9:34 When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts The Plague of Locusts Exodus 10:20 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go. The Plague of Darkness Exodus 10:27 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he was not willing to let them go. The Plague on the Firstborn Exodus 11:10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country. The Hard Heartedness is now seemingly due to the Lord as opposed to the Pharaoh. Why does this change? What is it supposed to mean? Speaking as a gentile first born son I've always found this to be a particularly problematic bit. Edited January 18 by topcat(The most tip top) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarrbridgeSaintee Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 1 hour ago, SlipperyP said: No he has explained why. He thinks Craig is a moron. To Be Fair, he is. Now I'm not being derogative to you or any other poster on this thread who hold the belief of a magical, (may words) thing. That keeps us all together. I shall respect those views, I just know they are wrong. Quote from Big Buddha himself,(who was real) below. Which was from stolen for the Christen viewpoint "he is the miracle, all bless our savour" f**k that, It's I, fucking I am the miracle, meaning you. There is nobody on this planet more worthy that me or you. Once we all look after ourselves and stop look up or down, we're going to kill ourselves and our children, then there will be god. God of fish and lizards I agree that all humans are of the same worth. As a Christian, it’s part of our teachings. Can’t agree that Craig is a moron though, although I’ll happily change my mind if given evidence of his moronism. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlipperyP Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 (edited) 33 minutes ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said: I agree that all humans are of the same worth. As a Christian, it’s part of our teachings. Can’t agree that Craig is a moron though, although I’ll happily change my mind if given evidence of his moronism. Thanks, for the understanding, but, I still have thoughts why you take the belief, that something is greater that you? Sure many people in my society worship Buddha, but still have the belief it's Buddha will not help you, , he can only take you on a path. Just Imagine A Fairy GoD in Kirkcaldy woods, it's real, just the fifers have heard and seen it. Edited January 18 by SlipperyP 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarrbridgeSaintee Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 1 hour ago, SlipperyP said: Thanks, for the understanding, but, I still have thoughts why you take the belief, that something is greater that you? Sure many people in my society worship Buddha, but still have the belief it's Buddha will not help you, , he can only take you on a path. Just Imagine A Fairy GoD in Kirkcaldy woods, it's real, just the fifers have heard and seen it. God seems greater than me because of his attributes. I’d need more info on the Fairy GoD roaming the woods of Kirkcaldy before reaching a position on it’s greatness though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forest_Fifer Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 8 hours ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said: Dawkins really lets himself down here IMO. Why would Dawkins want anything ro do with Low Bar Bill? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milton75 Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 5 hours ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said: God seems greater than me because of his attributes. I’d need more info on the Fairy GoD roaming the woods of Kirkcaldy before reaching a position on it’s greatness though. If it was the middle ages you might not have needed more info on the fairy GoD though. Just as you wouldn't have needed more info on a pantheon of Greek Gods, or on a thousand other now-defunct deities. Just as a cult can graduate into a religion given time and popularity, a religion can become a cultural footnote when things go in the opposite direction. Nothing's unique. Nothing's special. The only constant is our capacity for conceited delusion. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NathanDrake88 Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 Why Christianity and not Islam? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiegoDiego Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 2 hours ago, NathanDrake88 said: Why Christianity and not Islam? Pork and booze. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Ferrino Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 6 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said: Pork and booze. Ahh the 1990's. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarrbridgeSaintee Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 11 hours ago, milton75 said: If it was the middle ages you might not have needed more info on the fairy GoD though. Just as you wouldn't have needed more info on a pantheon of Greek Gods, or on a thousand other now-defunct deities. Just as a cult can graduate into a religion given time and popularity, a religion can become a cultural footnote when things go in the opposite direction. Nothing's unique. Nothing's special. The only constant is our capacity for conceited delusion. This is at complete odds with how Christianity started and spread. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milton75 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 2 hours ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said: This is at complete odds with how Christianity started and spread. Do elucidate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarrbridgeSaintee Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 47 minutes ago, milton75 said: Do elucidate. You’re the one making the original claim regarding time, popularity and delusion though, so it’s up to you to back that up first. Unless it’s just another case of ‘narrative of the gaps’, to be filed alongside the many others that exist amongst atheism. The floor is yours.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentGuerin Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 (edited) 23 hours ago, topcat(The most tip top) said: I've got an actual scriptural question as opposed to Ontological one In Exodus there's the familiar 10 plagues of Egypt story where God sends a plague to persuade the Pharaoh to free the Hebrews, the hard hearted Pharaoh doesn't budge and things escalate to the next plague. It goes through 10 iterations and finally the Pharaoh cracks For the first five this hard heartedness is described as simply being his nature or he has "hardened his heart" which suggests a certain amount of agency as if he was considering folding. The Plague of Blood Exodus 7:22 But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh’s heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said. The Plague of Frogs Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said. The Plague of Gnats Exodus 8:19 The magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hard and he would not listen, just as the Lord had said. The Plague of Flies Exodus 8:32 But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go. The Plague on Livestock Exodus 9:7 Pharaoh investigated and found that not even one of the animals of the Israelites had died. Yet his heart was unyielding and he would not let the people go. But over the last five the situation subtly changes The Plague of Boils Exodus 9:12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses. The Plague of Hail Exodus 9:34 When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts The Plague of Locusts Exodus 10:20 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go. The Plague of Darkness Exodus 10:27 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he was not willing to let them go. The Plague on the Firstborn Exodus 11:10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country. The Hard Heartedness is now seemingly due to the Lord as opposed to the Pharaoh. Why does this change? What is it supposed to mean? Speaking as a gentile first born son I've always found this to be a particularly problematic bit. Had this explained to me as a Yooof as an example of the idea that if you consistently reject God, then eventually he accepts your decision. Free will. Leads to different considerations around predetermination, all-knowing God etc, but that's how I had this explained to me. Not sure how it fits with the parable of the lost sheep, but there we go. Edited January 19 by VincentGuerin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milton75 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 1 hour ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said: You’re the one making the original claim regarding time, popularity and delusion though, so it’s up to you to back that up first. Unless it’s just another case of ‘narrative of the gaps’, to be filed alongside the many others that exist amongst atheism. The floor is yours.. Firstly, I didn't make any claim specific to Christianity. If you think I did, feel free to quote it. Unless this is just another case of ‘narrative of the make something up’, to be filed alongside the many others that exist amongst deism. Secondly, if I had wanted to single out the way Christianity started and spread, rather than make a general comment about the rise and fall of religions, I would have been considerably harsher: Word-of-mouth and apocryphal tales that spread half a century (by the reckoning of the time 2x generations) after the critical event is supposed to have occurred. Followed swiftly up with the subsuming of pre-existing festival periods to soften the blow of conversion across the Roman Empire and beyond. A cynical approach. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarrbridgeSaintee Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 7 minutes ago, milton75 said: Firstly, I didn't make any claim specific to Christianity. If you think I did, feel free to quote it. Unless this is just another case of ‘narrative of the make something up’, to be filed alongside the many others that exist amongst deism. Secondly, if I had wanted to single out the way Christianity started and spread, rather than make a general comment about the rise and fall of religions, I would have been considerably harsher: Word-of-mouth and apocryphal tales that spread half a century (by the reckoning of the time 2x generations) after the critical event is supposed to have occurred. Followed swiftly up with the subsuming of pre-existing festival periods to soften the blow of conversion across the Roman Empire and beyond. A cynical approach. My apologies, I thought you were insinuating that time, popularity and delusion were the drivers behind the origins and spreading of Christianity. Your confirmation of this not being the case is most welcome and pleasing. With regards to the ‘deliberately harsher’ points you outline, delete ‘apocryphal’ and you’re not far off IMO. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Practical advice needed This seemed like be the best thread I've got to go to my Goddaughters confirmation and, not being RC myself, I'm not familiar with what this involves Could anybody give me a quick bluffers guide 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmic Joe Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 (edited) 2 hours ago, topcat(The most tip top) said: Practical advice needed This seemed like be the best thread I've got to go to my Goddaughters confirmation and, not being RC myself, I'm not familiar with what this involves Could anybody give me a quick bluffers guide Mass is not that different from a COS gig. You stand up to pray, kneeling is optional when it comes to pre-Communion. There is no obligation when it comes to Communion but you can place your arms in a kind of St Andrew's cross across your chest if you wish to receive a blessing from the Priest. The Our Father stops slightly shorter, you wish the guys' around you peace when prompted just after the Our Father. Hopefully (pretty sure) you will be made welcome. Most of the Catholic family in attendance will probably be equally at sea. Catholic non attendance at Mass is almost as rife as their Presbyterian neebors. Edited March 22 by Cosmic Joe 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmic Joe Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Sorry, forgot to add, the individuals will come forward with their sponsors. The congregation will be asked to declare their faith. It will be a simple "I do" response to the Priest. Again optional. You won't get stared at if you don't respond. Nobody will notice. Most in attendance will be mumbling, you will be in the company of non- adherents. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Thanks @Cosmic Joe Should I get her a present? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.