VincentGuerin Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 1 minute ago, milton75 said: The whole post is merely reflecting on what the scriptures state. It's the opposite of over-think. I'm not analysing or critiquing the religion, simply citing tenets. And, by the way, given that the points in question stem from the 10 Commandments, the most basic pillars of what we call Christianity, I would hardly say I'm excessively asking people to "adhere strictly to every last letter ever written or spoken about their faith", as you're suggesting. I'm saying that they should follow its most fundamental principles. Please tell me exactly where I'm wrong. Other than it being a bit inconvenient for some people of course. Do you think that being mildly inconvenienced is enough to dissuade the faithful from wanting to enter God's kingdom in heaven? It seems that I hold their faith in far greater regard than you do. I think you're wrong in that you fail to appreciate that believers live in the real world where they want to maintain relationships and enjoy life. Believers interpret the commandments and the Bible in their own way. That's why it's silly to talk of "Christians believe...". Some Christians don't even believe that the story of the resurrection is meant to be taken literally. It's a broad church and people just rub along. Hardly anybody is sitting with a petted lip fuming about weddings or christenings. Some folk will, mind you. Also, from a purely pragmatic point of view, they'd rather non-believers who are getting married or having a funeral had that contact, relationship, and time spent in a church. It's really not hard to work out. This kind of thinking is what I mean when I say a lot of people on this thread simply do not understand people who have a faith. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milton75 Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 1 minute ago, VincentGuerin said: I think you're wrong in that you fail to appreciate that believers live in the real world where they want to maintain relationships and enjoy life. Believers interpret the commandments and the Bible in their own way. That's why it's silly to talk of "Christians believe...". Some Christians don't even believe that the story of the resurrection is meant to be taken literally. It's a broad church and people just rub along. Hardly anybody is sitting with a petted lip fuming about weddings or christenings. Some folk will, mind you. Also, from a purely pragmatic point of view, they'd rather non-believers who are getting married or having a funeral had that contact, relationship, and time spent in a church. It's really not hard to work out. This kind of thinking is what I mean when I say a lot of people on this thread simply do not understand people who have a faith. I don't fail to appreciate what they want. I just also manage to appreciate that having a faith is, supposedly, about committing to something. Maybe you disagree. Again, I'm not talking about some obscure piece of doctrine that's disputed here. The example I gave is so fundamental that it transcends the reformation. It's agreed upon by, to my knowledge, all branches of Christianity as a fundamental expectation. I'm not even suggesting that everything that could be interpreted as blasphemy should be castigated. If I was, I'd be saying tht muttering "for God's sake" after hitting your thumb with a hammer would get you in big trouble. I'm not saying any of that. I'm saying that it might just be considered reasonable that if you give the slightest shit about your faith you don't actively go and rip the piss out of it, in the actual house in which it is preached of all places. I wouldn't do that to someone's faith. It would be an appalling way to behave. But you're telling me that I'm expecting too much of people. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentGuerin Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 1 minute ago, milton75 said: I don't fail to appreciate what they want. I just also manage to appreciate that having a faith is, supposedly, about committing to something. Maybe you disagree. Again, I'm not talking about some obscure piece of doctrine that's disputed here. The example I gave is so fundamental that it transcends the reformation. It's agreed upon by, to my knowledge, all branches of Christianity as a fundamental expectation. I'm not even suggesting that everything that could be interpreted as blasphemy should be castigated. If I was, I'd be saying tht muttering "for God's sake" after hitting your thumb with a hammer would get you in big trouble. I'm not saying any of that. I'm saying that it might just be considered reasonable that if you give the slightest shit about your faith you don't actively go and rip the piss out of it, in the actual house in which it is preached of all places. I wouldn't do that to someone's faith. It would be an appalling way to behave. But you're telling me that I'm expecting too much of people. You're completely failing to understand that the acceptance of failure to be perfect is built into the deal. That's what the belief in the resurrection is about. It's hard to know where to begin because your failure to grasp the thought process is so fundamental. It's clear from your obsession with error and punishment that you don't actually understand Christianity at all. Christians (generally) once they are past childhood don't view things as "If I do X, I'll be in trouble". Your assertion that people are "ripping the piss" out of their faith by getting married in a church is one that strikes me as very silly. There will be some Christians who would agree with you, but most would tell you to calm down, dear. Like I said, it's a broad church. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Connolly Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 2 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said: You're completely failing to understand that the acceptance of failure to be perfect is built into the deal. That's what the belief in the resurrection is about. It's hard to know where to begin because your failure to grasp the thought process is so fundamental. It's clear from your obsession with error and punishment that you don't actually understand Christianity at all. Christians (generally) once they are past childhood don't view things as "If I do X, I'll be in trouble". Your assertion that people are "ripping the piss" out of their faith by getting married in a church is one that strikes me as very silly. There will be some Christians who would agree with you, but most would tell you to calm down, dear. Like I said, it's a broad church. TBF, he has a point. The suggestion that people might be a bit manipulative and hypocritical when it comes to organising weddings could be the thing that finally brings religion down. It would definitely not happen without people believing in a sky fairy, no way 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milton75 Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 2 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said: You're completely failing to understand that the acceptance of failure to be perfect is built into the deal. That's what the belief in the resurrection is about. It's hard to know where to begin because your failure to grasp the thought process is so fundamental. It's clear from your obsession with error and punishment that you don't actually understand Christianity at all. Christians (generally) once they are past childhood don't view things as "If I do X, I'll be in trouble". Your assertion that people are "ripping the piss" out of their faith by getting married in a church is one that strikes me as very silly. There will be some Christians who would agree with you, but most would tell you to calm down, dear. Like I said, it's a broad church. You seem very sure of yourself in knowing what "most Christians" would think. Far more than I. I'm simply asking questions, and so far you've failed to actually give me any answers beyond "that's not the way people view it". No justification, not rationale, nothing. Just "you're wrong". You may as well say "don't asked questions". Are you sure you're not religious? I'm glad you mention it being a broad church. As I said, the example I gave is so fundamental that It is agreed upon by, to my knowledge, all branches of Christianity as a fundamental expectation. Broad indeed... but not worth actually following. Got it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentGuerin Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 Just now, Mark Connolly said: TBF, he has a point. The suggestion that people might be a bit manipulative and hypocritical when it comes to organising weddings could be the thing that finally brings religion down. It would definitely not happen without people believing in a sky fairy, no way I don't understand your post, to be honest. Weddings are a farce because people are generally self-obsessed and use them as a willy-waving exercise. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Connolly Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 Just now, VincentGuerin said: I don't understand your post, to be honest. Weddings are a farce because people are generally self-obsessed and use them as a willy-waving exercise. That is my point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentGuerin Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 Just now, milton75 said: You seem very sure of yourself in knowing what "most Christians" would think. Far more than I. I'm simply asking questions, and so far you've failed to actually give me any answers beyond "that's not the way people view it". No justification, not rationale, nothing. Just "you're wrong". You may as well say "don't asked questions". Are you sure you're not religious? I'm glad you mention it being a broad church. As I said, the example I gave is so fundamental that It is agreed upon by, to my knowledge, all branches of Christianity as a fundamental expectation. Broad indeed... but not worth actually following. Got it. This is what I mean. I know you don't like being told it, ut you are wrong in even phrasing things like this. That's not how it works. "Agreed upon by all branches of Christianity" is a completely meaningless statement. It's nonsense. It's really hard to go further with you. It sounds offensive as writing has no tone, but sentences like that show that you just fundamentally do not understand Christianity or Christians. Your perceptions of them and their beliefs are deeply flawed. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milton75 Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 1 minute ago, Mark Connolly said: TBF, he has a point. The suggestion that people might be a bit manipulative and hypocritical when it comes to organising weddings could be the thing that finally brings religion down. It would definitely not happen without people believing in a sky fairy, no way I appreciate that I took what some might feel a trite example. However, forget not that God is eternal, meaning he has no beginning or end. To God, and definitely to God's faithful, the smallest of His creations and the tiniest of his proclamations are, unto us all, as mighty as His greatest. Amen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milton75 Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 2 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said: I don't understand your post, to be honest. Weddings are a farce because people are generally self-obsessed and use them as a willy-waving exercise. This I do agree with 100% 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milton75 Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 1 minute ago, VincentGuerin said: This is what I mean. I know you don't like being told it, ut you are wrong in even phrasing things like this. That's not how it works. "Agreed upon by all branches of Christianity" is a completely meaningless statement. It's nonsense. It's really hard to go further with you. It sounds offensive as writing has no tone, but sentences like that show that you just fundamentally do not understand Christianity or Christians. Your perceptions of them and their beliefs are deeply flawed. And yet you feel a) able to speak for them and b) conversely unable or unwilling to actually explain what you say I don't understand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentGuerin Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 Just now, milton75 said: And yet you feel a) able to speak for them and b) conversely unable or unwilling to actually explain what you say I don't understand. I grew up in a church-going family and have loads of genuinely religious family and friends. I think I can speak with a reasonable level of knowledge here, yeah. I think most religious people reading your arguments would just kind of shrug and not see them as worth engaging with. You're not saying anything meaningful that anyone would be bothered about. Non-believers get married at church? Hold the front page! You'll find some folk who will be a bit uncomfortable with it, or who would say that in an ideal world it wouldn't happen. But that would be such a minority view as to not be worth discussing. There are plenty of reasons to argue Christianity is completely invalid. What we're seeing on this thread are quite a lot of really surface-level facile arguments that non-believers genuinely do not care about as they accept them as being built into life. I meant what I said above. It's obvious you don't understand them and probably haven't spent much time around genuine believers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvo Montalbano Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 12 hours ago, The DA said: When America sneezes, Europe catches a cold. I was in Glasgow about three weeks ago there was a group of folk opposite the entrance to Buchanan Galleries with massive A0 posters of (supposedly) an aborted foetus alongside a similarish looking premature baby in an incubator. They did have some posters further down the street saying "Warning: Distressing images of abortion ahead" but did find it a bit weird that they were there, in a busy shopping street where there will have been children (we were there with our 4 year old) and women who have had to endure miscarriages, stillbirths, had abortions, etc wandering past on a regular Saturday afternoon. Presumably that's an American import, and we know how the fridge groups over here are increasingly turning to right wing fundamentalist organisations in America for funding and ideas. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milton75 Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 5 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said: I think most religious people reading your arguments would just kind of shrug and not see them as worth engaging with. You're not saying anything meaningful that anyone would be bothered about. So, going back to my previous question, in fundamental/psychological terms what is the difference between someone believing in everything you've mentioned and someone believing that the Earth is flat? As you said previously - they just view the world completely differently to you and I. None of the points you could make will land with a flat-Earther. They know and understand what you're saying, but it's meangingless to them. Is there a difference? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentGuerin Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 6 minutes ago, milton75 said: So, going back to my previous question, in fundamental/psychological terms what is the difference between someone believing in everything you've mentioned and someone believing that the Earth is flat? As you said previously - they just view the world completely differently to you and I. None of the points you could make will land with a flat-Earther. They know and understand what you're saying, but it's meangingless to them. Is there a difference? I couldn't care less. I have no interest in flat earthers and am not spending my day discussing them on P&B. My point is that the arguments you've made against religion would have the average believer shrugging and moving on with their day. They're well passed where you are in terms of understanding what they believe and why. There are much bigger issues you can go into. But what we've seen on this thread lately is really low-level stuff. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Manhattan Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 Anybody else missing @CarrbridgeSaintee and his William Lane Craig videos? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarrbridgeSaintee Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 7 minutes ago, Doctor Manhattan said: Anybody else missing @CarrbridgeSaintee and his William Lane Craig videos? If not, then you all should be! Been reading this discussion with interest, but unfortunately I’ve not had adequate time to reply. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milton75 Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 7 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said: I couldn't care less. I have no interest in flat earthers and am not spending my day discussing them on P&B. My point is that the arguments you've made against religion would have the average believer shrugging and moving on with their day. They're well passed where you are in terms of understanding what they believe and why. There are much bigger issues you can go into. But what we've seen on this thread lately is really low-level stuff. It's clear to everyone what you're doing. You will keep replying and replying to say that everything in the thread is low-level and trite but you refuse to actually use this insight you've developed throughout the years spent with believers to actually educate any of us on why what we've said is low-level or trite. Even when a direct question that could be answered "yes or no" is asked you shy away. You gripe that the question misses the point but don't say what the point is. The question on flat-earthers wasn't even about them or about their actual beliefs. It was about whether your description of the psychology of belief could apply to them. But... you refuse to answer that too. How surprising. You're basically the equivalent of someone on twitter going "I'm not telling you that, go google it" when they're asked anything they don't have an answer for. It's transparent and tiresome. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 1 hour ago, CityDave94 said: Values (might be traditional), structure in a chaotic world, logical thinking, order and discipline (can be the idea or requirement of self discipline), comfort and community, strength, coping and healing through the bad times including helping others, faith. Among reasons. Its down to that person's upbringing, environment and personal needs if this is to be an important part of their lives, certainly by the numbers intelligence has little to do with it same as non religious. So GD as an intelligent, logical person can think of something you believe in that (might) lack proof and evidence? Doesn't have to anything massive, could be something small in importance. Firstly the term ‘logical thinking’ has no place in a discussion about religion, unless it’s used in a phrase like ‘religious beliefs are the opposite of logical thinking’. But kudos for trying to sneak it in there. As to your question, the answer is no, not even a little bit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vietnam91 Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 12 hours ago, VincentGuerin said: I don't believe in God. Maybe you could explain how you've came to this stance despite ..... 11 hours ago, VincentGuerin said: I grew up in a church-going family and still know loads of people who believe this stuff. What made you say its not for me and I neither have faith in it nor believe it to be true? That way it may articulate your responses on a thread you've dismissed and actually add to the debate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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