Steve Clarke - in/out/general discussion

[Waspie]

13 minutes ago, Moonboot said:

If I'd known how negative Steve Clarke was going to be, I'd rather we had not qualified in the first place. I could have enjoyed all the other football, which has been positive, energetic and entertaining. Not like watching Scotland.

I want more from a team representing my country than what Steve Clarke had them set up to do tonight. The manager was negative, cowardly and lacking in confidence in his players. I can't think of worse characteristics in a manager.

Did you watch Scotland regularly over the last 20 years? We regularly had managers who couldn't get the best players to turn up and couldn't set up what they had in a coherent fashion to get anywhere near the best out of them. You might have preferred us not to qualify but I think most of us got pretty sick of seeing that. 

Clarke isn't perfect and he presided over an alarming loss of form in recent times, he has failed to find an effective plan B and he was again too slow to change approach tonight. But we could do and have done so much worse. We could do better but we could also regress very quickly. He's done enough to decide himself if he fancies another go. 

Edited Sunday at 23:58 by Waspie

[PrestersKTID]

We should’ve had enough to win tonight. Hungary were a poor side and while we had plenty control we created absolutely nothing. we could’ve opened a wee bit and at least played 2 up top instead of going gung ho for 10 mins which cost us.

that winner was proper gutting but not surprising. Sad thing is 2 points might have got us through.

 

However once again showed that we need all our best players fit or we just aren’t that good. 

Hickey was a massive loss and made us completely lop sided all tournament.
dykes for all his faults would’ve played these games in some part and would’ve caused them bother.

tierney being out lost us any attack down the left tonight. 

We completely shat the bed again. This probably worse than last time.

[Chesh]

1 win in 12 games says it all.

We now have quite difficult nations league games coming up so it's likely to get worse.

If Clarke stays he simply needs to come up with a plan that doesn't involve a back 5 because it's been completely found out.

 

The fact that hungary had to win the game but allowed us to hold the majority of the ball for 60/70 minutes because they knew we had nothing to threathen them with is a damming indictment on Steve Clarke.

[Acastus]

5 minutes ago, AngusTheBull said:

I’m not the biggest Moyes fan… but does anybody really think we’d have had only four shots at goal in three games under him?

There’s negative cautious football, and then there’s tonight.

I dunno man. Moyes doesn't strike me as too much of a change to Clarke. Think they'd be similar. Only one way to find out but naw we need a more forward thinking, young attacking minded manager IMO. Its the same old shit. 

[Acastus]

I mean currently it's like let's see how far we can shitfest it. Why not try a different approach? It'll probably shock opponents and because let's face it - they know what to expect with scotland, too predictable. 

Clarke played it too safe for me. No point getting this far and just being conservative, especially when a win would take us to the last 16. 

[2426255]

3 minutes ago, Butters Scotch said:

That's pretty obvious, SFA handed out a big contract to him so will have to stick with him regardless unless the next qualifying campaign goes tits up  then I think it could be shoogly peg time then. 

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the tactics, shape etc tonight? Are you gonna dare question it I wonder? 

The shape was fine by me. I've never had a problem with the shape, as you know I don't see it as particularly important in a team that can move between shapes which we saw tonight plenty. There has been an issue in the final third in creating chances at this level there's no denying that and that's something that will have to be looked at.

We are taking a step up over the course of the Euros and the Nations League and so it's normal to run into difficulties. I'm not going to get over emotional about it, that's fir true.

[ScottishLoon]

[Moonboot]

5 minutes ago, Waspie said:

Did you watch Scotland regularly over the last 20 years? We regularly had managers who couldn't get the best players to turn up and couldn't set up what they had in a coherent fashion to get anywhere near the best out of them. You might have preferred us not to qualify but I think most of us got pretty sick of seeing that. 

Clarke isn't perfect and he presided over an alarming loss of form in recent times, he has failed to find an effective plan B and he was again too slow to change approach tonight. But we could do and have done so much worse. We could do better but we could also regress very quickly. He's done enough to decide himself if he fancies another go. 

So you're argument is - we were really shit before Clarke and now we're not quite as shit, so let's stick with that because we might get more shit again. 

Remind me not to hire you for motivational speeches.

Not sure why it matters but I've been watching Scotland for over 55 years and I know I deserve better, and so do you.

I'm away to my bed.

[10menwent2mow]

Scotland in dreadful at major tournament shocker. What's that now. Not a win since euro 96. Get us to f**k. 

[Butters Scotch]

5 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

The shape was fine by me. I've never had a problem with the shape, as you know I don't see it as particularly important in a team that can move between shapes which we saw tonight plenty. There has been an issue in the final third in creating chances at this level there's no denying that and that's something that will have to be looked at.

We are taking a step up over the course of the Euros and the Nations League and so it's normal to run into difficulties. I'm not going to get over emotional about it, that's fir true.

Do you not think there's a correlation between shape and not creating chances? Can you not see why bringing in another CB type player would hinder our attack? 

Hungary aren't a step up from any other decent nation we've played over the last few years, in fact they looked a lot worse than us most of the game but still came out on top, it was reminiscent to the NI game.  

[Moonboot]

36 minutes ago, MarkoRaj said:

Thing that bothers me the most is Clark talked about being flexible.

We didn't have a plan b, just wait until the 80th minute to throw the kitchen sink.

Too many sacred cows like McGinn, McGregor and McTominay when it clearly wasn't working.

Hungary's plan was to keep it tight until 60 minutes and then go 2 up top. Then as it got more and more desperate they threw players up front

We skipped any tactical changes and just waited until 90 to throw Hanley up front.

We didn't have 2 strikers on at any point.

We didn't have any wingers on at any point.

We didn't at any point try to get in behind Hungary's defence.

Where is the tactical flexibility?

8 out of 8 correct.

[Spyro]

Anyone who celebrates a draw against a shite Switzerland team shouldn't be anywhere near an international team, unless it's San Marino or Gibraltar. We've been the worst team in the tournament, the players look fed up and everyone is laughing at us, but aye let's keep him! 

[The Other Foot]

Steve Clarke in/out? What’s the fucking question? Miserable fucking mediocrity is what he brings to the table. Oh but it’s alright because our fans sing the loudest…

 

Actually they don’t even do that. 

[Hoose Rice]

29 minutes ago, AngusTheBull said:

I’m not the biggest Moyes fan… but does anybody really think we’d have had only four shots at goal in three games under him?

There’s negative cautious football, and then there’s tonight.

I don't, no.  People will still moan for the way we play under Moyes though bearing in mind qualifying is no longer good enough. 

[ArtemisClydeFrog]

26 minutes ago, Acastus said:

I dunno man. Moyes doesn't strike me as too much of a change to Clarke. Think they'd be similar. Only one way to find out but naw we need a more forward thinking, young attacking minded manager IMO. Its the same old shit. 

And for that reason, I think we need to look abroad. 

What we saw tonight is almost Scottish football in microcosm. Conservative, risk averse football sorely lacking in creativity - that's our game in a nutshell. I can scarcely think of a Scottish manager (or team, really) who plays exciting, attacking, modern football. It's hoofball or possession branded hoofball, which is just the same hoof forward only after the centre backs and midfielders have knocked it about between themselves for a few passes to gaslight the fans in to thinking they're watching something 'progressive.' 

Edited Monday at 00:24 by ArtemisClydeFrog

[2426255]

9 minutes ago, Butters Scotch said:

Do you not think there's a correlation between shape and not creating chances? Can you not see why bringing in another CB type player would hinder our attack? 

Hungary aren't a step up from any other decent nation we've played over the last few years, in fact they looked a lot worse than us most of the game but still came out on top, it was reminiscent to the NI game.  

In a word, no. Correlation ≠ causation. We played with a back-4 (60 mins) for more of the game against Northern Ireland than we did with a back-3 (36 mins). We lost the goal after we went to a back-4 tonight, but I'm not saying that's why we lost the goal. We lost the goal because we were taking risks in order to score, not because we were playing a back-4. 

Any system can change while a game's in progress and can be played offensively, defensively, well or poorly.

[No_Problemo]

So many things to say after that, but I’m just going with this for the moment. 

With the game becoming so stretched, surely you want a striker on the pitch that looks to run in behind and has some pace. Shankland did well, but that would have complemented him too. 

Also, Lewis Morgan brings that boy down and gets sent off. They chuck everyone up at the free kick and we potentially get a chance to break on them. 

I’m not sure on Clarke. I potentially think you might get more out of this group with a more aggressive approach, but I don’t think the SFA will recruit anything of the sort. 

ETA, just saw it back and there were more poor decisions than Morgan and he wouldn’t have been sent off anyway. 

Edited Monday at 00:45 by No_Problemo

[DiegoDiego]

2 hours ago, Kadouken_ said:

We had one starter missing. 

Which of Tierney and Hickey do you not consider a nailed-on starter?

1 hour ago, pub car king said:

and the classic Scottish trait of not playing youngsters. 

What's the answer I don't honestly know. 

What youngsters would you have played tonight?

[2426255]

42 minutes ago, Butters Scotch said:

Hungary aren't a step up from any other decent nation we've played over the last few years, in fact they looked a lot worse than us most of the game but still came out on top, it was reminiscent to the NI game.  

If I believed that correlation implied a causation I might say that maybe Hungary looked worse because we were playing with three centre-backs. When we moved to two I thought they looked better. Therefore playing a back-4 must have been a poor move tactically.

I don't believe that, but that's how those arguments are constructed.

Edited Monday at 00:58 by 2426255

[Acastus]

29 minutes ago, ArtemisClydeFrog said:

And for that reason, I think we need to look abroad. 

What we saw tonight is almost Scottish football in microcosm. Conservative, risk averse football sorely lacking in creativity - that's our game in a nutshell. I can scarcely think of a Scottish manager (or team, really) who plays exciting, attacking, modern football. It's hoofball or possession branded hoofball, which is just the same hoof forward only after the centre backs and midfielders have knocked it about between themselves for a few passes to gaslight the fans in to thinking they're watching something 'progressive.' 

Yeah I can't disagree with that.  It's the same old tactics , sob stories and mentalities. It's so hard to try and stay positive. 

Popped round to my mums before the match and we both said we'd be surprised if we go through....Generations of failure. The mentality and outlook is all wrong for me. It's defeatist. Plucky Scots turn up in their kilts, drunk , singing, merry....pish.

New approach needed.