2023/24 New Season New Hope.

[Benidorm]

6 hours ago, An Absolute Imposter said:

Some interesting and thought provoking posts from various viewpoints regarding the SOSFL and tier 6.

I feel I occupy a slightly advantageous place in that I do not follow any specific club or league or whatever. I just go to games from Tier 6 down so can possibly be a bit more objective and dispassionate.

As all know the SOSFL almost found itself to be a Tier 6 League by accident at the inception of the Lowland; being only one if two eligible leagues within the Lowland catchment area with the SJFA not taking part back then for whatever reasons.

In the early days, before the mass influx from the Juniors, there was little movement between tiers 5 & 6, so the perceives or actual quality at the tier 6 leagues was not a factor.

But, since the EOSFL growing up and the birth of the WOSFL the attention on tier 6 has increased almost exponentially, so there is much more scrutiny now.

That however is irrelevant to my post just a bit of background information.

It is undeniable that there is a gulf in quality, and in numbers between the 2 leagues up north and the SOSFL.

This from my viewing is putting undue and unwanted pressure on the almost unfortunate SOSFL champion. They like all club's that win a league are deservedly crowned champions of the league they participate in, that then leads to when the problem starts for the SOSFL champion. As they are in a Tier 6 league and if they hold an SFA Licence they are then obliged to take part in the playoff to gain a place in the tier 5 league.

For the 2 other tier 6 champions this foes not present any problems, but for the SOSFL champion the gap in the standard between their tier 6 and the tier 5 is substantial.

This for me shows a weakness, a failing in the pyramid. I know for some the scorelines that are inflicted on the SOSFL in any playoff are part and parcel of a pyramid system and show it is working in that the best team moves up. That is a fair viewpoint from outside.

And for others it highlights that the SOSFL should not be at tier 6. That also is a fair viewpoint.

Herein lies the problem; if one of the tier 6 leagues is noticeably inferior where is the incentive for the clubs in that league.

I believe a pyramid is a place where all teams can look to improve and advance as far as they can but it should also see teams demoted if their standard falls. This upwards and downwards movement allows clubs to find a level playing field over time.

This is where the isolated SOSFL finds itself, it is stagnant with no upwards or downwards movement. There is no avenue for improvement of clubs or players.

The clubs on the SOSFL, although in the pyramid are not actively taking part on it, almost in there for show.

This for me is why the SOSFL clubs need to be properly integrated into the pyramid system via a proper integration with the WOSFL 

Sorry if this is a bit incoherent and disjointed as I am once again sitting outside a venue waiting for my girls to exit after seeing some pop punk princess. Another multi hour drive there and back home in the wee small hours. I am fecked and getting too old for this ferrying around.

Is it simply a matter of the SOS swallowing their pride and not giving up their position as a tier 6 league? It's not acting as a short cut to the LL anymore, it's acting as a source of embarrassment at this point. I can't imagine the best interests of the league is to dig their heels in and to say to the East and especially the West, f**k yous we were in the pyramid from the start. 

Edited May 26 by Benidorm

[An Absolute Imposter]

6 hours ago, Benidorm said:

Is it simply a matter of the SOS swallowing their pride and not giving up their position as a tier 6 league? It's not acting as a short cut to the LL anymore, it's acting as a source of embarrassment at this point. I can't imagine the best interests of the league is to dig their heels in and to say to the East and especially the West, f**k yous we were in the pyramid from the start. 

No argument with that at all, just an observation. What tier do they become and how don't they feed into the pyramid. 

I have no interest in the league, but the clubs; do not want them to be floating around in some desert land on a meaningless league with no prospect of development.

[Bad Wolf]

18 hours ago, An Absolute Imposter said:

Some interesting and thought provoking posts from various viewpoints regarding the SOSFL and tier 6.

I feel I occupy a slightly advantageous place in that I do not follow any specific club or league or whatever. I just go to games from Tier 6 down so can possibly be a bit more objective and dispassionate.

As all know the SOSFL almost found itself to be a Tier 6 League by accident at the inception of the Lowland; being only one if two eligible leagues within the Lowland catchment area with the SJFA not taking part back then for whatever reasons.

In the early days, before the mass influx from the Juniors, there was little movement between tiers 5 & 6, so the perceives or actual quality at the tier 6 leagues was not a factor.

But, since the EOSFL growing up and the birth of the WOSFL the attention on tier 6 has increased almost exponentially, so there is much more scrutiny now.

That however is irrelevant to my post just a bit of background information.

It is undeniable that there is a gulf in quality, and in numbers between the 2 leagues up north and the SOSFL.

This from my viewing is putting undue and unwanted pressure on the almost unfortunate SOSFL champion. They like all club's that win a league are deservedly crowned champions of the league they participate in, that then leads to when the problem starts for the SOSFL champion. As they are in a Tier 6 league and if they hold an SFA Licence they are then obliged to take part in the playoff to gain a place in the tier 5 league.

For the 2 other tier 6 champions this foes not present any problems, but for the SOSFL champion the gap in the standard between their tier 6 and the tier 5 is substantial.

This for me shows a weakness, a failing in the pyramid. I know for some the scorelines that are inflicted on the SOSFL in any playoff are part and parcel of a pyramid system and show it is working in that the best team moves up. That is a fair viewpoint from outside.

And for others it highlights that the SOSFL should not be at tier 6. That also is a fair viewpoint.

Herein lies the problem; if one of the tier 6 leagues is noticeably inferior where is the incentive for the clubs in that league.

I believe a pyramid is a place where all teams can look to improve and advance as far as they can but it should also see teams demoted if their standard falls. This upwards and downwards movement allows clubs to find a level playing field over time.

This is where the isolated SOSFL finds itself, it is stagnant with no upwards or downwards movement. There is no avenue for improvement of clubs or players.

The clubs on the SOSFL, although in the pyramid are not actively taking part on it, almost in there for show.

This for me is why the SOSFL clubs need to be properly integrated into the pyramid system via a proper integration with the WOSFL 

Sorry if this is a bit incoherent and disjointed as I am once again sitting outside a venue waiting for my girls to exit after seeing some pop punk princess. Another multi hour drive there and back home in the wee small hours. I am fecked and getting too old forcthis ferrying around.

An alternative view would be that the SOS champions, precisely because they enter a playoff with the E and W champions (assuming the latter ever provided an eligible club), can see how far they fall behind, and surely this is all the incentive they need to improve and aspire? And bear in mind that the SOS has already voluntarily dropped a tier in effect. While further down the table Uppers (my local team) win more than three games next season and move up a few places that will be an improvement, and surely a laudable, if minor, achievement in itself. There are probably 200 clubs in the pyramid system who can and will have no other aspiration than that.

 

Why should SOS clubs be subjected to this constant criticism and at times utter vilification in a way that other unsuccessful clubs elsewhere aren't? For example, Carluke Rovers (to whom I have family connections), a D4 WOS team from a town with a population of 14000, and are frankly utter shite. Yet no-one suggests they should be reduced in status or cease to exist. The SOS at tier 6 is not blocking any other club in other areas in any way.

[Bad Wolf]

12 hours ago, Benidorm said:

Is it simply a matter of the SOS swallowing their pride and not giving up their position as a tier 6 league? It's not acting as a short cut to the LL anymore, it's acting as a source of embarrassment at this point. I can't imagine the best interests of the league is to dig their heels in and to say to the East and especially the West, f**k yous we were in the pyramid from the start. 

That would be churlish, though no more than the behaviour of the oafs that refused to engage with the pyramid for years because they truly believed in their own specialness. Once again, the SOS is not affecting the progress of clubs in other areas in any way. If you want to blame anyone, look further north.

[Spyro]

4 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

For example, Carluke Rovers (to whom I have family connections), a D4 WOS team from a town with a population of 14000, and are frankly utter shite. Yet no-one suggests they should be reduced in status or cease to exist.

Nobody is suggesting anything like that for the SoS League at all. Settle down and stop being so dramatic

[An Absolute Imposter]

16 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

An alternative view would be that the SOS champions, precisely because they enter a playoff with the E and W champions (assuming the latter ever provided an eligible club), can see how far they fall behind, and surely this is all the incentive they need to improve and aspire? And bear in mind that the SOS has already voluntarily dropped a tier in effect. While further down the table Uppers (my local team) win more than three games next season and move up a few places that will be an improvement, and surely a laudable, if minor, achievement in itself. There are probably 200 clubs in the pyramid system who can and will have no other aspiration than that.

 

Why should SOS clubs be subjected to this constant criticism and at times utter vilification in a way that other unsuccessful clubs elsewhere aren't? For example, Carluke Rovers (to whom I have family connections), a D4 WOS team from a town with a population of 14000, and are frankly utter shite. Yet no-one suggests they should be reduced in status or cease to exist. The SOS at tier 6 is not blocking any other club in other areas in any way.

To be fair to Uppers they have just completed their 10th season in the SOSFL and before Lockdown did finish quite regularly in top half. It's only the past 2 seasons they haven't got past 5 wins.

I feel at times that folk think I am anti SOSFL clubs and want to see them dropped down the pyramid.

Not remotely, I attend as many games across the county as my circumstances allow and support all 11 clubs.

What I see at the moment in the SOSFL is 11 clubs all playing at the same tier. Ability wise they are not at the same level.

If the clubs are properly integrated into the pyramid, over time each club will move up or down or stay where they are dependent on the resources available and ambition at each club. That is my end game.

The problem is, how is that achieved. The simple answer is tag them on at the bottom of the WOSFL, which suits the narrative that south clubs are inferior.

Of course any amalgamation or integration cannot take place with the WOSFL being at a kind of natural limit of 80 clubs.

Then there is this issue the SFA has with increased regionalisation,  which is an avenue that could help clubs in the lower tiers be more sustainable.

There does appear a train of thought that the pyramid is all about the top tiers; aspiring and getting to tiers 6 and 5. There is nothing wrong with a club topping out at tier 7 or 8 or wherever. If that's where a clubs finances, abilities and size keeps them viable and competitive, is that not an indication that the pyramid is working.

As always it seems that the only folk interested I the growth of the pyramid in Scottish Football is the little people.

How do we get the decision makers across all the self-interested parties to take part in this pyramid fully.

[Sermani]

One game left in the South season then a summer break. Will this "perceived" problem with tier 6 be resolved over the summer ?

I assume all clubs in the South will have an AGM, will it be a topic or brought up in discussion?

The South FA will have an AGM, will it be a topic or brought up in discussion?

Are the ivory towers of the SFA, sitting with there head in there hands thinking oh dear! after the play-off result?

Will the WOSFL be having a discussion about this? If regionalisation, is there a desire amongst clubs to travel to Wigtown or Stranraer in deep winter?

Do the PWG, if still in existence, know what day it is? 

Will Lyndon Dykes start up front for Scotland v Germany?

Thank goodness for P&B

[An Absolute Imposter]

24 minutes ago, Sermani said:

One game left in the South season then a summer break. Will this "perceived" problem with tier 6 be resolved over the summer ?

I assume all clubs in the South will have an AGM, will it be a topic or brought up in discussion?

The South FA will have an AGM, will it be a topic or brought up in discussion?

Are the ivory towers of the SFA, sitting with there head in there hands thinking oh dear! after the play-off result?

Will the WOSFL be having a discussion about this? If regionalisation, is there a desire amongst clubs to travel to Wigtown or Stranraer in deep winter?

Do the PWG, if still in existence, know what day it is? 

Will Lyndon Dykes start up front for Scotland v Germany?

Thank goodness for P&B

Couldn't resist replying.

Tier 6 problem; only exists on here with us that dont have a life.

South agm's; not been mentioned at any so far, don't these people read p&b.

South agm; too busy trying to fit more cups into the season.

SFA; LL playoff, what's that and why aren't there any b teams involved.

WOSFL; football doesn't exist outside the central belt.

Regionalisation; nay, nay and thrice nay. Also Stranraer only exists for the invading hordes to get back and forth from the 2 meccas. And Wigtown?

PWG; did it know it existed?

Lyndon Dykes; wrong forum.

P&B; only human contact my wife allows me. 🗣

[Sermani]

6 hours ago, An Absolute Imposter said:

Couldn't resist replying.

Tier 6 problem; only exists on here with us that dont have a life.

South agm's; not been mentioned at any so far, don't these people read p&b.

South agm; too busy trying to fit more cups into the season.

SFA; LL playoff, what's that and why aren't there any b teams involved.

WOSFL; football doesn't exist outside the central belt.

Regionalisation; nay, nay and thrice nay. Also Stranraer only exists for the invading hordes to get back and forth from the 2 meccas. And Wigtown?

PWG; did it know it existed?

Lyndon Dykes; wrong forum.

P&B; only human contact my wife allows me. 🗣

Correct. Gold star Top of the class, first prize a season ticket for Twynholm FC

Couple of pointers though. Teir 6 problem only exists for people outside D&G and probably aren't regular attendees at SOSFL games.

Is Campbeltown classed as central belt.

Ferries moved from Stranraer, no need for invading hoards or even it's existence.

PWG ?

Lyndon Dykes moved from Dumfries Sunday League to QOS at  tier 2, very naught missing tier 6

Mister Ed

[Benidorm]

8 hours ago, An Absolute Imposter said:

Couldn't resist replying.

Tier 6 problem; only exists on here with us that dont have a life.

South agm's; not been mentioned at any so far, don't these people read p&b.

South agm; too busy trying to fit more cups into the season.

SFA; LL playoff, what's that and why aren't there any b teams involved.

WOSFL; football doesn't exist outside the central belt.

Regionalisation; nay, nay and thrice nay. Also Stranraer only exists for the invading hordes to get back and forth from the 2 meccas. And Wigtown?

PWG; did it know it existed?

Lyndon Dykes; wrong forum.

P&B; only human contact my wife allows me. 🗣

Status quo for the foreseeable. Surely to to f**k Beith will be licenced next year almost guaranteeing a West team is promoted and at least one vacancy (you would think). Dread to think what a team like Beith or the Bankies would do to a South team if Broxburn were able to do what they did.

Also always the chance one of the div 4 teams finds things to be too much and drops out or the money and egos expire at one of these vanity mobs like Caley Locos and they just implode, creating alternative vacancies.

And yeah, if it ever happened moving in a full swoop, the presence of teams like Campbeltown makes further regionalisation at the bottom tier even more logical.

My eventual prediction though like others, is 3/4 clubs will in time when the opportunity presents move over at various points. You may get a couple of teams backing each other up and going together out of fear of the unknown if that becomes a possible scenario. I include Gretna in that group of clubs even if they're in the LL for now. For more than half of the league though why would you bother? Tbh, I'd back even the bottom feeders in the West like Saltcoats to hump the dregs of the South so it's pointless. 

Edited May 27 by Benidorm

[AML67]

On 23/05/2024 at 16:35, annan4eva said:

Id like to see Annan have a team in the SOS next season TBH., Im hoping its on Wullie to do list,

Would be a good addition but it definitely won’t be for next season as no one applied  

[AML67]

On 24/05/2024 at 20:22, Sermani said:

Max High FPs and the Crichton, two ex league winners,  Blackwood Dynamos, Dumfries High FPs, and Dumfries FC who even moved to a new ground at Glencaple.

What happened to that Wellington team from Glasgow? No interest this year or not allowed on geographical terms?

Most of these teams were literally decades ago now and Crichton became what is now Lochmaben ! Glasgow Wellington appear to have cooled any interest and there seems to be none from any of the amateur teams to attempt the step up 

[AML67]

On 25/05/2024 at 00:13, Clyde01 said:

The purpose would be that Dumfries and Galloway doesn’t really warrant having a full tier 6 league to itself and that it should be merged with the WoS league system. It’s really just a quirk of the way the pyramid came together that it sits at that level.
The fact that Threave (a traditionally strong sos side) have now stalled in div3 of the west and the playoff results for Dalbeattie adds further evidence that the league is totally misplaced in terms of quality.

Obviously the gulf in quality will reduce as more big hitters move into the lowland league over time but I still don’t see a SoS winning the playoff anytime soon. 

Yet again someone fails to grasp that there was NO West League and the East was on its own knees at the time of the great ‘Junior’ jump ! We are well aware of the gulf in standard that any play off would expose but that doesn’t give any former junior fan the right to decide who sits where in the Pyramid when they didn’t give two hoots about it up until these last few years 

[AML67]

On 25/05/2024 at 10:54, patrick thistle said:

out of interest, is there any rule which would stop Clydebank from transferring to the SOSL for one season (and presumably winning it), thus having a more assured route to the LL play-offs than them continuing to be Beith's (or another unlicensed team's) bridesmaids in the WOSL?

No , not to the best of my knowledge and likewise any of the more ‘local’ sides like Girvan , Maybole , Craigmark , Kello etc could also use this line of thinking if they had ambitions beyond the lower reaches of the West !

if the South accepted Bonnyton , Caley Braves and on paper East Kilbride at one time then nothing stops anyone trying this ‘easier’ route 

[AML67]

On 25/05/2024 at 18:01, FairWeatherFan said:

Going by the headcount data, the Dalbeattie v. Broxburn game had 1,871. If that's even close to true that's pretty worthwhile for them.

The figure you quote as. The attendance at the Stranraer v East Kilbride match and not the Dalbeattie v Broxburn game unfortunately 

[rockson]

On 26/05/2024 at 16:16, Spyro said:

"cease to exist."  "Nobody is suggesting anything like that for the SoS League at all."

But they are suggesting exactly that in saying SoS clubs - the "better" ones (like Threave) - should move over to the west.

Were that to happen the SoS would verge on being not viable and likely disappear.

[Spyro]

19 hours ago, rockson said:

"cease to exist."  "Nobody is suggesting anything like that for the SoS League at all."

But they are suggesting exactly that in saying SoS clubs - the "better" ones (like Threave) - should move over to the west.

Were that to happen the SoS would verge on being not viable and likely disappear.

Nope, even using your own example they definitely aren't calling for the SoS to cease their existence. You're adding 2 and 2 then making 7 there

[rockson]

4 hours ago, Spyro said:

Nope, even using your own example they definitely aren't calling for the SoS to cease their existence. You're adding 2 and 2 then making 7 there

Not in so many words. But that would be the likely end result.

[vikingTON]

SoS clubs will absolutely cease to exist, if the West of Scotland sends them to North Ayrshire, Dunbartonshire and of course Campbeltown on a regular basis. The travel costs are completely unjustifiable. 

The West of Scotland already has a catchment area. If anything, the boundary between the two should be moved north and west to balance the pyramid and to facilitate full participation from Argyll and Bute. 

The South of Scotland is not part of that area and should not see several clubs fold for the sake of tht spreadsheets of a handful of demented pyramid anoraks. 

[An Absolute Imposter]

26 minutes ago, virginton said:

SoS clubs will absolutely cease to exist, if the West of Scotland sends them to North Ayrshire, Dunbartonshire and of course Campbeltown on a regular basis. The travel costs are completely unjustifiable. 

The West of Scotland already has a catchment area. If anything, the boundary between the two should be moved north and west to balance the pyramid and to facilitate full participation from Argyll and Bute. 

The South of Scotland is not part of that area and should not see several clubs fold for the sake of tht spreadsheets of a handful of demented pyramid anoraks. 

The all-knowing oracle has spoken. Your in depth knowledge of SOS football is just overwhelming. 

Sanquhar closer to virtually every club in Ayrshire than half of the SOSFL.

Moffat and Lockerbie, throw in Lochmaben, easier and quicker to get to Lanarkshire than Stewartry and Wigtonshire.

Dumfries to Glasgow just over an hour, Dumfries to Wigtonshire about the same.

Stewartry and Wigtonshire to Ayrshire just over an hour. 

Hardly journeys to the dark side of the moon. 

Oh and journeys I make almost weekly.

It's quicker and easier to get from Glasgow, Lanarkshire and Ayrshire to Gallovidia, than Edinburgh to Coldstream and Berwick or Fife and Perthshire to the Borders.

Don't hear any complaints from EOS about these journeys.

South clubs are doing well, thanks for asking. Our clubs are well run financially, living within their means whilst improving the ground and helping in their local communities. There are plenty of good business brains down here in the forgotten county. 

Our clubs are knowledgeable about the pyramid and where they fit into it, in the present and where they need to be in the future.

Oh and don't try and tell my I am wrong re the travelling. Was a service engineer for 20 plus years know my way around Scotland pretty well thanks very much.

Of course you are always right and know what is best for everyone single club and league in the pyramid.

I was finished posting until pre season but you had to come on and spout your wisdom.