welshbairn Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 8 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said: As I said, I don't claim any expertise, I got the gist of what went wrong. However, I think with the right tactics we'd still have got humped. For e very tactician, like yourself, there is an alternative view. I have a fairly simplistic view, Germany were better than us. As someone whose tactical knowledge died when 2-3-5 stopped defining positions, I think Scotland thought Germany would rely on their superior skill to elegantly move the ball around, instead of combining that with fighting tooth and nail for every first and second ball from the kick off. Plan B might have been parking the bus but after 20 minutes it was too late. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 2 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said: Well if you don't have the players to play a system why play the system, So tactically clarke got it wrong That's your view and your sticking to it. That's fine, I'm not here to convince you. Rangers fans have no love for Clarke, tell me were they happy Scotland got pumped - bet you they were delighted. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 Just wanted to one more thing. Not only do fans miss half the shit unfolding in front of their face. Managers have at least 4 pairs of eyes feeding them information and some of that is data analytics and who knows in the future maybe AI. The idea that your joe public is going to know what is the best tactical approach or changes to be made is only going to get further away imo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chripper Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 1 minute ago, HopeStreetCadette said: This discussion about tactics being wrong begs the question, how do we set up tactically in our next 2 games to ensure success if it’s not sitting deep and counter attacking? Great question. I honestly thought that when we played the Netherlands that was going to be the template going forward. Yes, we lost 4-0, but it was 1-0 with 72 minutes to go. We went at them and showed bravery and attacked them. We matched them with possession, passing, shots and chances. It's not like they stepped off and let us have possession. They didn't. They pressed us just as much as Germany did. That day we also had Gilmour in central midfield and we played 3-4-2-1. I have no appetite to rewatch last night's match. But from memory it looked like we played 5-4-1 and our gameplay was to park the bus and play on the counter. We should've been set-up like we did against the Dutch. Hindsight Is a great thing, but last night was Murphy's Law (whatever could go wrong will go wrong). I hope in the next two matches we just set up more positively. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing.McCrosby Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 5 minutes ago, 2426255 said: Just wanted to one more thing. Not only do fans miss half the shit unfolding in front of their face. Managers have at least 4 pairs of eyes feeding them information and some of that is data analytics and who knows in the future maybe AI. The idea that your joe public is going to know what is the best tactical approach or changes to be made is only going to get further away imo. Your also just a fan, and a Joe public. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 (edited) 8 minutes ago, SlayerX said: Great question. I honestly thought that when we played the Netherlands that was going to be the template going forward. Yes, we lost 4-0, but it was 1-0 with 72 minutes to go. We went at them and showed bravery and attacked them. We matched them with possession, passing, shots and chances. It's not like they stepped off and let us have possession. They didn't. They pressed us just as much as Germany did. That day we also had Gilmour in central midfield and we played 3-4-2-1. I have no appetite to rewatch last night's match. But from memory it looked like we played 5-4-1 and our gameplay was to park the bus and play on the counter. We should've been set-up like we did against the Dutch. Hindsight Is a great thing, but last night was Murphy's Law (whatever could go wrong will go wrong). I hope in the next two matches we just set up more positively. Clarke did hint in the post match that Gilmour will start in one of the games. He was asked by a journalist if it was a tough decision and if it would have made any difference. Clarke answered by saying: Quote I thought Germany were excellent. We couldn't get a foothold in the game. I'm not too sure if it would have made any difference (starting Gilmour), but we'll find out. Steve Clarke Edited June 15 by 2426255 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Bing.McCrosby said: Your also just a fan, and a Joe public. Yes, I'm not pretending I'm more than that. Steve Clarke isn't just a fan or just joe public which is the point you always seem to miss. I think this recent quote sums up my opinion. Recent quote from Julian Nagelsmann about armchair tacticians out there. Directed towards armchair fans and media. ------------------------------------ In our country it's become quite common for fans to judge players, which I don't like to do because I'm just watching it as a fan. I would never sit in front of the TV and say that I would have done so-and-so as the manager or question what a player is doing, because you don't know what's really going on there. It's a terrible example, but there are teams that are really bad at throw-ins in their own half so a team might have a tactic to kick the ball against an opposing player to force them to have lots of throw-ins in their own half or put the ball out of play themselves. The fans just see a lot of balls going out of play and wonder why that is. When you don't know what the managers plan is and what they might have intended, it's extremely hard to judge. That's not to say that you're not disappointed as a fan when Germany don't play well in tournaments. But I'm not a manager who sits in front of the TV, judges another manager, is constantly making notes or claims that he would have reacted a certain way or made certain substitutions because I wasn't there. Julian Nagelsmann ------------------------------------ https://streamable.com/kipkso Edited June 15 by 2426255 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 20 minutes ago, Jambomo said: Gilmour said that was part of his decision to leave. Murty left him out of a cup squad or something and he decided to go. Dont kid yourself that it had nothing to do with the fact chelsea paid him fortunes nevermind what they gave his family as well in terms of buying accommodation etc A 15yo left out of a cup game doesn't think "aye I'll go to chelsea cause they play loads of 15yo's" lol 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 21 minutes ago, 2426255 said: That's your view and your sticking to it. That's fine, I'm not here to convince you. Rangers fans have no love for Clarke, tell me were they happy Scotland got pumped - bet you they were delighted. Dont care if it was clarke or anyone else, he got it wrong, both player choice and tactics People can moan about the lack of press, energy etc, but when you pick 3 centre halves to mark one man while 5 of they best midfielders in the world stroll about against 4 of your team, there will be no press and the energy quickly evaporates as players feel it's a pointless effort 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 1 minute ago, 54_and_counting said: Dont care if it was clarke or anyone else, he got it wrong, both player choice and tactics People can moan about the lack of press, energy etc, but when you pick 3 centre halves to mark one man while 5 of they best midfielders in the world stroll about against 4 of your team, there will be no press and the energy quickly evaporates as players feel it's a pointless effort right, fair enough. off you go then. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekok Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 OK my bad for engaging with this sad git. Over and out 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 4 minutes ago, ekok said: OK my bad for engaging with this sad git. Over and out 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkoRaj Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 Numbers, can you remember us playing a flat 4 in midfield. I remember Clark talking about us having different options within the same formation: box midfield, 3 across the middle with a number 10 and a flat 4 but I can't recall when we actually played it. Feel like it would have been the better option last night 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 (edited) 21 minutes ago, MarkoRaj said: Numbers, can you remember us playing a flat 4 in midfield. I remember Clark talking about us having different options within the same formation: box midfield, 3 across the middle with a number 10 and a flat 4 but I can't recall when we actually played it. Feel like it would have been the better option last night We played a flat-4 against Norway. Also at home to Spain, away to France. It's usually when we don't have the ball becoming a 3421 when we have the ball. It was a bit of a go to during qualification and we really used it after struggling at home to Cyprus pressing from a 3421 shape first using it in the 2-nil win against Spain. I think we used it last night, but it can be hard to tell it apart from 3421. The flat-4 normally plays our two #10's as wide midfielders https://streamable.com/79s7u1 Quote He's great (Dykes). He's got a tireless shift up there when I play that 5-4-1 flat. He never stops running, he never stops trying. Steve Clarke, Norway v Scotland https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65941355 Edited June 15 by 2426255 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RawB93 Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 7 minutes ago, MarkoRaj said: can you remember us playing a flat 4 in midfield. I prefer 'the central belt' 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coooombe Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 1 hour ago, 54_and_counting said: Dont care if it was clarke or anyone else, he got it wrong, both player choice and tactics People can moan about the lack of press, energy etc, but when you pick 3 centre halves to mark one man while 5 of they best midfielders in the world stroll about against 4 of your team, there will be no press and the energy quickly evaporates as players feel it's a pointless effort It was essentially 7 v 4 in midfield as our wing backs were so narrow that their full backs had the full width of the pitch to themselves too. f**k knows what the plan was but the back 5 essentially left us with 4 players out of the game whenever Germany had possession. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HopeStreetCadette Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 2 hours ago, SlayerX said: Great question. I honestly thought that when we played the Netherlands that was going to be the template going forward. Yes, we lost 4-0, but it was 1-0 with 72 minutes to go. We went at them and showed bravery and attacked them. We matched them with possession, passing, shots and chances. It's not like they stepped off and let us have possession. They didn't. They pressed us just as much as Germany did. That day we also had Gilmour in central midfield and we played 3-4-2-1. I have no appetite to rewatch last night's match. But from memory it looked like we played 5-4-1 and our gameplay was to park the bus and play on the counter. We should've been set-up like we did against the Dutch. Hindsight Is a great thing, but last night was Murphy's Law (whatever could go wrong will go wrong). I hope in the next two matches we just set up more positively. Crazy how performance and tactics can completely shift the narrative. We got hounded that night in the end but I looked at that performance with much more optimism than last night despite it being the same margin of defeat. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chripper Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 22 minutes ago, HopeStreetCadette said: Crazy how performance and tactics can completely shift the narrative. We got hounded that night in the end but I looked at that performance with much more optimism than last night despite it being the same margin of defeat. It's true. I didn't understand the criticism after the Dutch defeat. Van der Vaart even said afterwards that Scotland should've won 0-4 and remember Koeman's interview post match? He looked like he saw a ghost. We had a high press and a high defensive line. So, pretty much the opposite against Germany. If we play the way we did against the Dutch (same system and same application) against the Swiss and Hungary, we could win both. Fingers crossed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictorOnopko Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 3 hours ago, 2426255 said: Yes, I've been dealing with mugs like yourself all day in between trying to re-watch bits of last nights game to figure out what went wrong. Who appointed you to deal with the "mugs" expressing opinions on here? 2 hours ago, 2426255 said: Just wanted to one more thing. Not only do fans miss half the shit unfolding in front of their face. Managers have at least 4 pairs of eyes feeding them information and some of that is data analytics and who knows in the future maybe AI. The idea that your joe public is going to know what is the best tactical approach or changes to be made is only going to get further away imo. I'm not entirely convinced based on last night's drubbing and national humiliation that the current management team know the best tactical approach or how to respond to unfolding shit. I suppose we'll find out in the next two games. So far all they've managed is a clusterbùrach in front of a global audience. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 What was the worst gap for Scotland? The one(s) we gave Germany last night or the Darién Gap? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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