Chripper Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 Thankfully I don't have a social media (Facebook, etc) footprint so I can avoid all of the slings and arrows. Small mercies and all that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 5 minutes ago, GordonS said: The very strong Sweden who had qualified unbeaten ahead of England, who won their group at the Euros two years later knocking out England and France and made the semi finals, who finished third at the World Cup in 94 losing 1-0 to Brazil in the semi and who reached number 2 in the world rankings that year. It's easily the best team Sweden have had since 1958. Have you actually posted tables from later tournaments to bolster your case? The fact is that they had a miserable tournament at the one being discussed, also managing to lose to Costa Rica. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 (edited) 1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said: Have you actually posted tables from later tournaments to bolster your case? The fact is that they had a miserable tournament at the one being discussed, also managing to lose to Costa Rica. No, I posted tables from the qualification before that tournament, and two from after. Look again. You're effectively using one result - the defeat to Costa Rica - to argue that a team with a very good record over the course of 6 years wasn't very good. They lost by a goal to Brazil and to us. Those don't take away from the reality of how good that side was. I have never heard anyone try to argue that wasn't a very strong Sweden side before, so points for novelty. Edited June 15 by GordonS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 This feels very similar to the last Euros when folk were saying similar things about us qualifying out the group. Hopefully this time we will actually learn some lessons. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dons_1988 Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 It’s not a uniquely Scottish thing to have reactions like this. I’m not sure why people think it is. Being heavily emotionally invested in something you have zero control over is usually a recipe for bad reactions. Theres a balance to strike between recognising the quality of the opposition and acknowledging that we were dreadful. The good news is we’re capable of delivering much better and let’s see where it takes us. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 28 minutes ago, GordonS said: No, I posted tables from the qualification before that tournament, and two from after. Look again. You're effectively using one result - the defeat to Costa Rica - to argue that a team with a very good record over the course of 6 years wasn't very good. They lost by a goal to Brazil and to us. Those don't take away from the reality of how good that side was. I have never heard anyone try to argue that wasn't a very strong Sweden side before, so points for novelty. Well if citing 92 and 94 is relevant, can I ask how they did in 86 and 88? It would surely be equally relevant. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu2910 Posted June 15 Author Share Posted June 15 I can assure everyone that cares that I’m not a tartan army veteran, or a veteran at all for that matter. I also don’t just accept mediocrity. And apologies to anyone that feels what I said was condescending as it’s genuinely not meant that way. I just feel that for the vast majority of my life, Scotland have been a genuine embarrassment and now that we are not, it would be a real shame to lose the feeling of optimism around the team just because of one (or several) particularly bad performance and result. If we go and get similar hidings in the next couple of games then that is unforgivable and the reaction will be justified, but would anyone be genuinely surprised if we win at least one of them? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 21 hours ago, stu2910 said: Just thought I should get this is in here now. I’ve not even been on social media yet but I know there will be a ton of people throwing all sorts of nonsense out there out of frustration and disappointment. We have to understand that we were up against one of the biggest nations in world football in what was effectively an away game. Predictably we got beat and unfortunately due to some bad decisions and bad luck plus some phenomenal play from the opposition, we got a bit of a hiding. Also, 4 years ago if we were offered 2 games against Switzerland and Hungary to progress from a Euros group we would have been delighted. Everything is still very much in our own hands this is where our tournament really starts. Let’s leave the sensationalism to the muppets that get paid for it. Good thread. Honestly the TA forum is an emotional, angsty and frustrated mess. The usual old shite comes back like Ryan Gauld should have been called up and all the other shite about Clarke being too loyal and the armchair tacticians decide to tell us Clarke got it wrong. I've spent the whole day trying to make people see sense. It always a disaster zone when we lose. Same as any other team. Sack the manager and sell all the players. Going forward I think we just have to focus on the Swiss game. I thought Clarke was okay in the post match presser with UEFA. He said we need to just move on from this quickly and I hope they can all do that. It doesn't matter what the fans and media do or say. It's all about the players and how they perform in the next two games. On a positive note the result today probably helps us. Hungary must be on the floor with a game against Germany next where they need something. If we get a point against the Swiss then we'll be going into a game with Hungary hopefully already having been eliminated needing 3pts. Given where we left off last night I'd say that's a) achievable and b) a good starting point for thinking about the next game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HopeStreetCadette Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 8 minutes ago, 2426255 said: Good thread. Honestly the TA forum is an emotional, angsty and frustrated mess. The usual old shite comes back like Ryan Gauld should have been called up and all the other shite about Clarke being too loyal and the armchair tacticians decide to tell us Clarke got it wrong. I've spent the whole day trying to make people see sense. It always a disaster zone when we lose. Same as any other team. Sack the manager and sell all the players. Going forward I think we just have to focus on the Swiss game. I thought Clarke was okay in the post match presser with UEFA. He said we need to just move on from this quickly and I hope they can all do that. It doesn't matter what the fans and media do or say. It's all about the players and how they perform in the next two games. On a positive note the result today probably helps us. Hungary must be on the floor with a game against Germany next where they need something. If we get a point against the Swiss then we'll be going into a game with Hungary hopefully already having been eliminated needing 3pts. Given where we left off last night I'd say that's a) achievable and b) a good starting point for thinking about the next game. Finally some sense, might be unpopular but I cannot see why we can’t go out for 4 or even 6 points in the next two games with some revised tactics (see the aggression and counter attacking style we showed vs Spain). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ro Sham Bo Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 I would say that last night was genuinely embarrassing. I felt embarrassed watching it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 23 minutes ago, 2426255 said: Good thread. Honestly the TA forum is an emotional, angsty and frustrated mess... It always a disaster zone when we lose. I agree that the TA threads are the nuttiest on the site. I actually find it far worse when we win. The bragging, the hubris, the getting utterly carried away and vengeful attacking of anyone suggesting caution, is quite something. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 50 minutes ago, HopeStreetCadette said: Finally some sense, might be unpopular but I cannot see why we can’t go out for 4 or even 6 points in the next two games with some revised tactics (see the aggression and counter attacking style we showed vs Spain). Because we showed nothing last night. Obviously we have a chance in the next two games, but if last night's team turns up to either game we're getting nothing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted June 15 Share Posted June 15 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said: I agree that the TA threads are the nuttiest on the site. I actually find it far worse when we win. The bragging, the hubris, the getting utterly carried away and vengeful attacking of anyone suggesting caution, is quite something. I find them equally bad. I don't care so much when we win as then I'm not having to put out fires. It's effort when we lose. Don't know why I bother. Edited June 15 by 2426255 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocketman Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 12 hours ago, stu2910 said: I can assure everyone that cares that I’m not a tartan army veteran, or a veteran at all for that matter. I also don’t just accept mediocrity. And apologies to anyone that feels what I said was condescending as it’s genuinely not meant that way. I just feel that for the vast majority of my life, Scotland have been a genuine embarrassment and now that we are not, it would be a real shame to lose the feeling of optimism around the team just because of one (or several) particularly bad performance and result. If we go and get similar hidings in the next couple of games then that is unforgivable and the reaction will be justified, but would anyone be genuinely surprised if we win at least one of them? Optimism is built upon gradual improvement. The team has on the whole done well under Clarke and he is a good manager. But a major failing is we regularly regress at key points and turn in results and performances like that against Germany. After all the preparation and the fact this has happened time and time again before, for the team to perform like that on the Euro opening is quite unforgivable. Therefore it is not a knee jerk reaction to a one off bad/shocking performance - to consider it as such, tell everyone to calm down and say we could potentially get 4-6 points in the next two games, is real happy clappy stuff and pretty insulting. it's fine if that is what you wish to do but many want to know why we remain prone to nights like that. 9 hours ago, 2426255 said: I find them equally bad. I don't care so much when we win as then I'm not having to put out fires. You are the hero that PnB deserves.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 27 minutes ago, Pocketman said: Optimism is built upon gradual improvement. The team has on the whole done well under Clarke and he is a good manager. But a major failing is we regularly regress at key points and turn in results and performances like that against Germany. After all the preparation and the fact this has happened time and time again before, for the team to perform like that on the Euro opening is quite unforgivable. Therefore it is not a knee jerk reaction to a one off bad/shocking performance - to consider it as such, tell everyone to calm down and say we could potentially get 4-6 points in the next two games, is real happy clappy stuff and pretty insulting. it's fine if that is what you wish to do but many want to know why we remain prone to nights like that. It depends on your expectation. Can we play better than we did against Germany? yes. Do we regress at key points? No. (I assume you're looking at the results and performances against Germany, Czech Republic, Croatia and Ukraine and discounting England obviously as the key points). As a team we haven't ever proven we can consistently compete at this level under Clarke beyond one off games. We are trying to make the final step. We are in that process now. We haven't gone backwards. Clarke has helped us build a platform to try and make the step up to this level. It's unfair to say we've regressed. We're trying to break through a glass ceiling and it's not easy. Clarke said at the start of the year that we're trying to make the final and hardest step. That's what this is all about: The hard friendlies, the Euros, the Nations League. We might not see the benefit this year and maybe it won't be until 2025 that we will be ready to make the step. No chance have we regressed, we've just not broken through the ceiling yet. We might not be able to break through it. You have to accept that as a possibility, but it's a hell of a lot better place to be than where he took the job. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocketman Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 8 minutes ago, 2426255 said: It depends on your expectation. Can we play better than we did against Germany? yes. Do we regress at key points? No. (I assume you're looking at the results and performances against Germany, Czech Republic, Croatia and Ukraine and discounting England obviously as the key points). As a team we haven't ever proven we can consistently compete at this level under Clarke beyond one off games. We are trying to make the final step. We are in that process now. We haven't gone backwards. Clarke has helped us build a platform to try and make the step up to this level. That's what this whole year is about. If we were at that stage we would be at least difficult to beat and then looking to build on that. We are not - games over the past 6 months has seen some good performances in periods but the pattern has been awful defending and an inability to retain possession. On top of that, we throw in a performance like that against Germany for a key game where we have been focused and preparing for that for months. We are hugely inconsistent and results wise unfortunately in a real slump. If we can't address or even fathom why we fall back to throwing in performances like that against Germany - without those debating it in balanced way as being labeled "unrealistic" or "delusional" re their expectations - then we may as well resort to posting only positive messages. Some folks still argue that players read negative comments on forums and it affects their confidence 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Scotia Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 The whole scenario of our qualifying relies on Ifs and buts 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudia Gentile Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 The fans are always far more reactionary than the reality in the camp. Steve Clarke and the players will all know they let themselves down on Friday. So it will be the manager's job to get the spirits back up with the help of the senior players. The team doesn't vary too much in formation so the players know their roles. Personnel wise, I think there will be one enforced change and I think maybe one change in the four behind Adams, with possiblt Gilmour coming in. The manager won't be throwing anyone under the bus as that would be counter-productive and cause more problems than solve issues that probably aren't even there, certainly within the camp. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 40 minutes ago, Pocketman said: If we were at that stage we would be at least difficult to beat and then looking to build on that. We are not - games over the past 6 months has seen some good performances in periods but the pattern has been awful defending and an inability to retain possession. On top of that, we throw in a performance like that against Germany for a key game where we have been focused and preparing for that for months. We are hugely inconsistent and results wise unfortunately in a real slump. The difficult part is when you try to open up and control the game with the ball and begin taking risks at the back. Our defence is a weakness in our game which is no doubt why we decided our best chance against Germany was defend deep and counter. Our possession stats in the friendlies against England (40%), France (48%) and the Netherlands (47%) were decent. There is a pattern. In the competitive games we defended deep and countered (Spain, Norway, Spain, Germany). In the friendlies we tried to develop our game with the ball, go toe to toe (England, France, Netherlands). It's a big leap we're trying to make. Probably comparable to Aberdeen, Hibs or Hearts trying to play on an Old Firm level or maybe a better example would be one of the Old Firm trying to compete at Champions League level. I understand you're disappointed we haven't as yet reached our goal, but that's the bigger picture. It's not a regression to aim high and not achieve - can't get on board with that point of view. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty dingus Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 Just watched a good video showing the Germans tactics and how Tony Kroos controlled the game. Hopefully the Swiss haven't watched it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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