What is the point of labour ?

[SANTAN]

1 minute ago, Fullerene said:

That's true.  Corbyn was seen as not patriotic enough.  "What if we need to nuke somebody?  Can Jeremy be trusted to do that?"

Apparently dressing up in a Union Jack outfit and singing the national anthem with gusto is seen as the most important thing.

There was also his past association with literal terrorists and the whole antisemitism thing but yeah, flags or something. 

[Fullerene]

47 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

There was also his past association with literal terrorists and the whole antisemitism thing but yeah, flags or something. 

Yes that is true.  Major and Blair also had dealings with the IRA but they were more delicate about it.  Corbyn's approach made it look like he was anti-British.

Nelson Mandela was once labelled a terrorist and that is what Thatcher thought he was.

Corbyn also had issues with antisemitism because he couldn't make the problem go away.

Corbyn was very popular amongst his supporters but he provided a lot of ammunition for his opponents.

[Detournement]

12 hours ago, GordonS said:

New Labour didn't destroy the social base of their victory. They recognised that the working class are a minority, the middle class became the majority in the 1980s. We've had a quiet class war in Britain and the middle class won.

The extent to which the English working class voted against their own interests in picking Johnson over Corbyn is both extraordinary, and completely new. The 2019 election was the first time that the Conservatives got a higher proportion of votes among C2DE voters than ABC1 voters.

It's not possible to win a UK general election while representing working class interests. Starmer knows it. So it's lawr and order, immigration and patriotism all the way now.

The middle class don't win anything. They are going to get roundly shafted by the rich as well. 

New Labour could have strengthened workers rights and trade unions, built more permanent social housing and kept a lid on buy to let but they didn't. They unleashed the forces that destroyed their own chances of ever winning. Third way politics in Europe in the 90s were only possible because of the legacy of earlier social democracy. They dug their own grave. 

The ABC2DE ratings are 50 years old, not relevant to professions and don't reflect the fact that the majority of people who vote don't work. Labour under Corbyn won handily amongst the employed and low incomes. 

[GordonS]

Just now, Detournement said:

The middle class don't win anything. They are going to get roundly shafted by the rich as well. 

New Labour could have strengthened workers rights and trade unions, built more permanent social housing and kept a lid on buy to let but they didn't. They unleashed the forces that destroyed their own chances of ever winning. Third way politics in Europe in the 90s were only possible because of the legacy of earlier social democracy. They dug their own grave. 

The ABC2DE ratings are 50 years old, not relevant to professions and don't reflect the fact that the majority of people who vote don't work. Labour under Corbyn won handily amongst the employed and low incomes. 

Sorry, I agree, the middle class think they're winning because they measure winning in terms of detached houses, cars in the driveway and having more than those they look down on.

New Labour were never going to strengthen trade union rights because they knew that they would pay the electoral price if trade unions used their powers to do unpopular things, as happened in the 70s. The worst thing about New Labour though was that they stopped even arguing in favour of the left. They abandoned the ground on redistribution, social security and progressive taxation, allowing the right to make their arguments unopposed.

Yeah, those social grade classifications are out of date, but they're still illustrative. Two big things stick out in the post-election follow-up polling, more than income. One is age, especially among women - young women more than four times as likely to vote Labour as Tory. And the other is education - those with no more than GSCEs broke heavily for the Tories while those with degrees or higher broke heavily for Labour. These are not normal patterns in UK elections.

[Detournement]

The qualifications reflect the fact that leaving school at 16 was very common amongst older generations.

The 2017 Labour vote total despite all the disadvantages they had points to a way to win with a working class led coalition. And there will likely never be another issue like Brexit with complete dominance of the media for over 12 months prior to an election. On the other hand the ranks of nihilist pensioners and underemployed over 55s grows every day but they definitely don't reflect the working population of the country. 

[San Starko Rover]

SLAB baffles me with their blind hatred of the SNP, yes they’re Unionists and that’s a Red line for them, fair enough. But surely it’s better to work with the SNP in Scotland than the Tories. The Tories are pretty much at odds with everything the Labour Party stand for except Unionism. Labour would achieve far more up here by working with the government on areas they agree, they can still refuse to back independence. 2014 BT destroyed Labour and it wasn’t the SNP that did it to them it was the Tories who basically used Labour as fall guys for the Vow. Sarwar would be better to continue to distance his party from the Tories but find areas to work with the government on and he might get through some of his policies through compromise. Something being in a pro Union pact with DRoss will never achieve. He’s got 2 policies 1. SNP Bad and 2. No Referendum.

[Antlion]

2 hours ago, San Starko Rover said:

SLAB baffles me with their blind hatred of the SNP, yes they’re Unionists and that’s a Red line for them, fair enough. But surely it’s better to work with the SNP in Scotland than the Tories. The Tories are pretty much at odds with everything the Labour Party stand for except Unionism. Labour would achieve far more up here by working with the government on areas they agree, they can still refuse to back independence. 2014 BT destroyed Labour and it wasn’t the SNP that did it to them it was the Tories who basically used Labour as fall guys for the Vow.

Nye Bevan called. He wants his Labour Party back.

[SANTAN]

25 minutes ago, Antlion said:

Nye Bevan called. He wants his Labour Party back.

Well done you managed to not mention bodily fluids. You enjoy your cartoons today? 

[G51]

Just popped into this thread after reading the polling for the Hartlepool by-election.

Fucking lol.

Also, it turns out Corbyns policies all poll extremely well despite Labour ditching them for some, erm, mysterious reason. Who could have predicted this except absolutely everyone?

[Dunning1874]

The full details of the poll are quite something:

https://www.survation.com/first-hartlepool-phone-poll-has-conservatives-in-driving-seat/

49% voting Tory v 42% voting Labour, with Reform UK only taking 1% where Brexit Party had taken 25%. That 24% drop corresponding with a 20% increase in the Tory vote from 2019 v a 4% increase in the Labour vote.

As an aside the Northern Independence Party, having started as a meme from the shitposting left on twitter before deciding to become a real party, are already polling higher than the Lib Dems and Greens with 2%  

Meanwhile, 67% say funding public services should be a priority v 24% who say it should be cutting the deficit, 43% & 42% want a 3% or 10% pay rise for nurses v 12% supporting a 1% pay rise or none, 57% want Royal Mail renationalised v 29% who want it to stay private, and 69% support free broadband by 2030 v 18% who oppose.

It's almost as if, despite Corbyn's personal unpopularity, these policies are actually extremely popular in the North of England and by far the biggest factor in their collapse in 2019 v 2017 was changing their Brexit policy to support a second referendum. A policy which was driven by, erm, Keir Starmer.

Good thing then that now Brexit is finished as an electoral issue, the Labour Party are reverting to having no policies and people having no idea what they stand for. That'll get the Brexit Party voters back!

Edited April 6, 2021 by Dunning1874

[Wee-Bey]

What having zero policy does to a motherfucker.

They will literally just blame it all on Joromy Crobin untill 2028 anyway.

[NotThePars]

1 hour ago, G51 said:

Just popped into this thread after reading the polling for the Hartlepool by-election.

Fucking lol.

Also, it turns out Corbyns policies all poll extremely well despite Labour ditching them for some, erm, mysterious reason. Who could have predicted this except absolutely everyone?

 

37 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

The full details of the poll are quite something:

https://www.survation.com/first-hartlepool-phone-poll-has-conservatives-in-driving-seat/

49% voting Tory v 42% voting Labour, with Reform UK only taking 1% where Brexit Party had taken 25%. That 24% drop corresponding with a 20% increase in the Tory vote from 2019 v a 4% increase in the Labour vote.

As an aside the Northern Independence Party, having started as a meme from the shitposting left on twitter before deciding to become a real party, are already polling higher than the Lib Dems and Greens with 2%  

Meanwhile, 67% say funding public services should be a priority v 24% who say it should be cutting the deficit, 43% & 42% want a 3% or 10% pay rise for nurses v 12% supporting no pay rise or none, 57% want Royal Mail renationalised v 29% who want it to stay private, and 69% support free broadband by 2030 v 18% who oppose.

It's almost as if, despite Corbyn's personal unpopularity, these policies are actually extremely popular in the North of England and by far the biggest factor in their collapse in 2019 v 2017 was changing their Brexit policy to support a second referendum. A policy which was driven by, erm, Keir Starmer.

Good thing then that now Brexit is finished as an electoral issue, the Labour Party are reverting to having no policies and people having no idea what they stand for. That'll get the Brexit Party voters back!

Lisa Nandy when asked what policy she would drop from the manifesto replied "free broadband."

 

Free broadband currently has 69% (nice) support from this poll.

[G51]

After Corbyn resigned, my auld da thought Nandy was the best choice for leader on the basis that she really understood the concerns of rural and town communities and was the most effective communicator of the contenders.

Cant wait to rub those poll results in the stupid auld c***s face.

[GiGi]

Labour leaflet in the door. "We will focus on what unites us as a country - not what divides us"

What the f**k would that be, exactly?

[NotThePars]

1 hour ago, G51 said:

After Corbyn resigned, my auld da thought Nandy was the best choice for leader on the basis that she really understood the concerns of rural and town communities and was the most effective communicator of the contenders.

Cant wait to rub those poll results in the stupid auld c***s face.

I still remember a 17 year old cornering me at Allin-Khan's Deputy Leadership launch and trying to press gang me into voting for Nandy. Actually led me to remove her as a number 2 choice. f**k that.

1 hour ago, GiGi said:

Labour leaflet in the door. "We will focus on what unites us as a country - not what divides us"

What the f**k would that be, exactly?

In fairness to the leaflet there isn't a single mention of independence. Our local MSP candidate also sent us a leaflet saying young people have been "shafted" by SNP and Tory cuts which made me burst out laughing.

Edited April 6, 2021 by NotThePars

[GiGi]

On 03/04/2021 at 11:23, NotThePars said:

Remember this goof Theresa May made?

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/theresa-may-general-election-christian-fundamentalism-gay-exorcism-homophobia-abortion-a7762561.html

"Theresa May just visited a homophobic Christian fundamentalist church – how can gay voters trust her?" 

That church was Jesus House.

Now guess which church Keir Starmer just visited for Good Friday.

Yep, you guessed it!

 

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56644740

I, for one, am shook

[NotThePars]

Well by the lofty standards he placed on Rebecca Long Bailey he should step down. 

[Granny Danger]

2 hours ago, Dunning1874 said:

The full details of the poll are quite something:

https://www.survation.com/first-hartlepool-phone-poll-has-conservatives-in-driving-seat/

49% voting Tory v 42% voting Labour, with Reform UK only taking 1% where Brexit Party had taken 25%. That 24% drop corresponding with a 20% increase in the Tory vote from 2019 v a 4% increase in the Labour vote.

As an aside the Northern Independence Party, having started as a meme from the shitposting left on twitter before deciding to become a real party, are already polling higher than the Lib Dems and Greens with 2%  

Meanwhile, 67% say funding public services should be a priority v 24% who say it should be cutting the deficit, 43% & 42% want a 3% or 10% pay rise for nurses v 12% supporting a 1% pay rise or none, 57% want Royal Mail renationalised v 29% who want it to stay private, and 69% support free broadband by 2030 v 18% who oppose.

It's almost as if, despite Corbyn's personal unpopularity, these policies are actually extremely popular in the North of England and by far the biggest factor in their collapse in 2019 v 2017 was changing their Brexit policy to support a second referendum. A policy which was driven by, erm, Keir Starmer.

Good thing then that now Brexit is finished as an electoral issue, the Labour Party are reverting to having no policies and people having no idea what they stand for. That'll get the Brexit Party voters back!

So almost 50% will vote Tory despite a majority supporting policies that the Tories won’t implement.

I fucking despair at people’s utter stupidity.

 

[btb]

2 hours ago, Dunning1874 said:

The full details of the poll are quite something:

https://www.survation.com/first-hartlepool-phone-poll-has-conservatives-in-driving-seat/

49% voting Tory v 42% voting Labour, with Reform UK only taking 1% where Brexit Party had taken 25%. That 24% drop corresponding with a 20% increase in the Tory vote from 2019 v a 4% increase in the Labour vote.

As an aside the Northern Independence Party, having started as a meme from the shitposting left on twitter before deciding to become a real party, are already polling higher than the Lib Dems and Greens with 2%  

Meanwhile, 67% say funding public services should be a priority v 24% who say it should be cutting the deficit, 43% & 42% want a 3% or 10% pay rise for nurses v 12% supporting a 1% pay rise or none, 57% want Royal Mail renationalised v 29% who want it to stay private, and 69% support free broadband by 2030 v 18% who oppose.

It's almost as if, despite Corbyn's personal unpopularity, these policies are actually extremely popular in the North of England and by far the biggest factor in their collapse in 2019 v 2017 was changing their Brexit policy to support a second referendum. A policy which was driven by, erm, Keir Starmer.

Good thing then that now Brexit is finished as an electoral issue, the Labour Party are reverting to having no policies and people having no idea what they stand for. That'll get the Brexit Party voters back!

I lived in Newcastle for a coupla years and have friends & family in Liverpool and Manchester too - back in 2014 I used to say to them you'd be better off as the South of Scotland - they laughed at the time but they're a bit quieter these days. 

[GordonS]

On 04/04/2021 at 13:30, San Starko Rover said:

SLAB baffles me with their blind hatred of the SNP, yes they’re Unionists and that’s a Red line for them, fair enough. But surely it’s better to work with the SNP in Scotland than the Tories. The Tories are pretty much at odds with everything the Labour Party stand for except Unionism. Labour would achieve far more up here by working with the government on areas they agree, they can still refuse to back independence. 2014 BT destroyed Labour and it wasn’t the SNP that did it to them it was the Tories who basically used Labour as fall guys for the Vow. Sarwar would be better to continue to distance his party from the Tories but find areas to work with the government on and he might get through some of his policies through compromise. Something being in a pro Union pact with DRoss will never achieve. He’s got 2 policies 1. SNP Bad and 2. No Referendum.

When the SNP came to prominence in the 1970s Labour were still a party of the working class and trade unions. Solidarity was and is rightly a vital part of representing the working class against the bosses. The SNP were seen as class splitters who would weaken the strength of the working class in the UK. Labour supporters felt that the working class across Britain had much more in common with each other than with the middle class in each constituent part, needed to stick together, and that the SNP would divide coal miners, car manufacturers, steel workers etc.

The Tories have always been a threat to the interests of Labour supporters but not much of an electoral threat, in that Labour were never worried about losing lots of voters to them. But the SNP took "their" voters, and that combined with them seeing the SNP as splitters is where the hatred comes from.

Early serious contests between the SNP and Labour in places like West Lothian were brutal affairs and led to polarisation. The hatred started from the Labour side but was soon reciprocated, and Labour came to be seen as anti-Scottish by SNP supporters.

That hatred is real btw, you see it at election counts and on councils, especially in the central belt. And the main reason Scottish Labour are in the state they are in is because they said that supporting independence makes you a bad person, a blood-and-soil nationalist, so they drove their independence-minded supporters into the arms of the SNP.