Guest Jedi Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 Agree that that would at least be a step forward.....back a vote in the event of an SNP majority, and allow their members and MSPs to campaign and vote for Yes, if they want, but also a proper more federal solution, as the status quo is completely done with Brexit, and an 80 seat Tory manjorty. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrewDon Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 To be honest, I haven't noted much desire for a 'federal solution' outwith Gordon Brown and a few thinktanks. I sense that the vast majority of Scottish Labour's ever-dwindling activist base is very pro-union. Most polls I've seen recently tend to show a decent minority of Scottish Labour voters are pro-independence, or at least pro-referendum, but that's not reflected in their remaining membership or elected representatives. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakedee Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 The Westminster Parliament would never pass a vote for a Federal solution.It's a non starter, I thought everyone would have got that by now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 34 minutes ago, Jedi said: Surely in Scotland, Labour have to enter the elections in May with a proper 'middle ground' between Indy and the 'status quo' this time Nope! 4 minutes ago, DrewDon said: To be honest, I haven't noted much desire for a 'federal solution' outwith Gordon Brown and a few thinktanks. Yup! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 I don't see why they should. They should run on being a left wing influence in a potential hung parliament and oppose the SNP's overly strict summer lockdown measures and the idiotic Hate Crime speech bill. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 Good to see her owning Liz Truss but does anyone actually care? It's getting to the point where the Tories could announce they are castrating every male who earns less than £20k pa and the country would shrug. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMjag Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 1 hour ago, Jedi said: Agree that that would at least be a step forward.....back a vote in the event of an SNP majority, and allow their members and MSPs to campaign and vote for Yes, if they want, but also a proper more federal solution, as the status quo is completely done with Brexit, and an 80 seat Tory manjorty. The Labour Party's ideological and organisational structure is, fundamentally, unitary and British Nationalist, so they're about as likely to cede any ground to Scottish Independence as the Tories are. There is no plausible 'middle ground' either - 'federalism' of any kind is completely unworkable in the UK and the devolution well is pretty much dried up. This is why their membership has been hoovered up by the SNP (and the Tories to a lesser extent in Scotland), leaving an embarrassing rump made up of 60+ year olds, UWS undergrads with pink hair, and people who have Mrs Brown's Boys on box set. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jedi Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 They have to shift in some way on the Constitutional question though...simply saying No to a Referendum in the next parliament, will only aline them with the Tories and lead to them finishing 3rd (at best). Federalism could work if the second chamber required a 'majority' of two of the four areas for a vote, otherwise, clearly the numerical superiority of English members would always carry.. The biggest downside to the whole endeavour is certainly that it still leaves the 'UK' out of the EU. There must still be some scope for FFA for Scotland, although it would also require the establishment of an English Assembly. As things stand at the moment, a post-Independence Scotland will still be dominated by the SNP unless Labout gets its act together to be able to at least from some effective opposition. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 I think Labour are genuinely almost completely boxed out of an electoral comeback in Scotland as things stand. Too many potential Labour voters have split off to the SNP / Tory along attitude to independence lines. There is no middle ground constitutional argument that will both win enough voters back and have any chance of happening. The only path is the excruciatingly difficult pitch that a Labour led UK, outside the EU is the best scenario for Scotland right now. Is it possible to find a leadership and manifesto that would convince enough Scots to go for it as well as win back the Gammon Wall down south? Unlikely. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 12 minutes ago, Gordon EF said: I think Labour are genuinely almost completely boxed out of an electoral comeback in Scotland as things stand. Too many potential Labour voters have split off to the SNP / Tory along attitude to independence lines. There is no middle ground constitutional argument that will both win enough voters back and have any chance of happening. The only path is the excruciatingly difficult pitch that a Labour led UK, outside the EU is the best scenario for Scotland right now. Is it possible to find a leadership and manifesto that would convince enough Scots to go for it as well as win back the Gammon Wall down south? Unlikely. And the more Starmer appeals to the prejudices of Northern England the more marginal SLab will become. You hate love to see it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee-Bey Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 It feels like we discuss this every few weeks tbh. Labour are pretty fucked electorally due to the untenable status quo. Ironically, their best hope is a 2nd referendum. A Yes win and they can build back towards being the natural centre left party of governance. A No win would put the issue to bed and they may very well win back votes from the SNP. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrewDon Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 Also, a referendum gives the third party a platform that they don't have in 'normal' times, which benefited Ruth Davidson and the Tories last time out. Still, I'm not sure there is anybody in Scottish Labour capable of taking advantage of such an opportunity even if it did come along, and the majority of the hard unionist vote is safely in the hands of the Tories anyway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 42 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said: No win would put the issue to bed No chance unless it was under 45%. Experience shows that referendums only escalate things. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thistle_do_nicely Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Detournement said: No chance unless it was under 45%. Experience shows that referendums only escalate things. yeah, I had wondered about that myself. if theres a second indyref and the yes vote gets, say, more votes than in 2014 but it's a narrower % of say 48% then the swing is small enough that another indyref could conceivably return independence in a pretty short timescale, so a few more SNP majorities (SNP campaigning would pretty much have to go from any mention of another referendum to "only we can fight to get more powers for Holyrood and look after your interests at Westminster") would be motivation enough to keep the pressure up. Could end up dragged into a pointless conflict in the Middle East that's deeply unpopular in Scotland which brings up the question again, who knows what the future holds. Probably a pointless conflict in the Middle East tbf. Might split a bit more between SNP / Greens especially on the list seats but personally I can't see myself ever voting for a unionist party again, referendum or no referendum. Edited November 26, 2020 by Thistle_do_nicely 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee-Bey Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 7 minutes ago, Detournement said: No chance unless it was under 45%. Experience shows that referendums only escalate things. Do you think a 3rd referendum would be granted by Westminster? Calling for a 3rd referendum after 2 defeats in the space of 6 or 7 years, with absolutely zero chance of getting one sees a decent chunk of soft Yes and soft No voters ditch the SNP imo. Not to mention the 'holding my nose till after indy' voters too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 7 minutes ago, Thistle_do_nicely said: yeah, I had wondered about that myself. if theres a second indyref and the yes vote gets, say, more votes than in 2014 but it's a narrower % of say 48% then the swing is small enough that another indyref could conceivably return independence in a pretty short timescale, so a few more SNP majorities (SNP campaigning would pretty much have to go from any mention of another referendum to "only we can fight to get more powers for Holyrood and look after your interests at Westminster") would be motivation enough to keep the pressure up. Could end up dragged into a pointless conflict in the Middle East that's deeply unpopular in Scotland which brings up the question again, who knows what the future holds. Probably a pointless conflict in the Middle East tbf. Might split a bit more between SNP / Greens especially on the list seats but personally I can't see myself ever voting for a unionist party again, referendum or no referendum. I like my local Labour candidate but lol at endorsing Starmer. If there's no Greens constituency candidate then I'll spoil that vote and vote Greens on the list. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jedi Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 The Gammon Wall could come back to Labour at the next GE, as by then Brexit will have had some space to play out the complete mess it will be. Also, the Tories will have been in their natural territory of making savage cuts to public services, post-Covid. The biggest problem Labour have in forming a govt is of course Scotland. Either by the time of the next GE, Scotland is Independent, leaving Lab fighting for seats across England, a fight it is always unlikely to win overall, or a 2nd Ref has been lost in Scotland, and the SNP are in a conundrum of where to go next, at which point how Labour handled the 2nd Ref would be key in any form of recovery for them. So, overall, yes, it might well be that Labour have to see how Independence pans out in the next 2 or 3 years, before imagining what their future might be. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 54 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said: Do you think a 3rd referendum would be granted by Westminster? Calling for a 3rd referendum after 2 defeats in the space of 6 or 7 years, with absolutely zero chance of getting one sees a decent chunk of soft Yes and soft No voters ditch the SNP imo. Not to mention the 'holding my nose till after indy' voters too. People just want what they want these days. Indyref and Brexit referendums have galvanized each sides. Indyref2 is unlikely to end in a handshake and better man won regardless of the outcome. If the SNP payroll are dependent on the 30-38% of Scottish voters who have always been for independence and always will be for their livelihoods then they will keep pushing it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 Old thread but a good one, Tories are obviously worse but they didn't have to look far for ideas. Also outsourced assessment for Employment & Support Allowance to ATOS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 (edited) 49 minutes ago, MixuFruit said: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/28/starmer-prepares-to-reopen-old-labour-wounds-over-brexit-deal-vote Am I going daft or did the red wall not want a hard brexit? It's daft to say that a loosely defined collection of constituencies 'want' anything. There will be various groups/positions as are there are everywhere. Starmer is doing the correct thing on this. Parliament is there primarily to legislate not campaign and on something as important as leaving the EU the opposition parties should be working to get the best deal possible and minimise the influence of the ERG. That is the only realistic, reasonable and responsible position and it's obviously the Corbyn position. The People's Vote arseholes of all parties knew they were risking hard Brexit and a huge Tory majority to achieve their personal goals of knifing Jez for the Blairites, continued SNP hegemony for the Murrells, winning a couple of seats in London for the LDs and getting on the telly for the Greens. Edited November 28, 2020 by Detournement 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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