What is the point of labour ?

[Bad Wolf]

Cruella has broken the law, and is a threat to national security. The language she uses is a direct incitement to terrorists. Why isn't Starmy saying this in the house?

[Granny Danger]

If I thought for one minute that Labour was looking at the imbalance of political resources, the implacability of the mindset of typical Little Englander and the natural conservatism of the MSM and thinking “f**k it we will say whatever we need to win an election and once we do will embark on a radical and fundamental series of policies” then I would be encouraged.

But Starmer in government will be as weak and ineffectual as Starmer in opposition.  Tory-Lite In every respect.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Granny Danger

[Benjamin_Nevis]

15 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

If I thought for one minute that Labour was looking at the imbalance of political resources, the implacability of the mindset of typical Little Englander and the natural conservatism of the MSM and thinking “f**k it we will say whatever we need to win an election and once we do will embark on a radical and fundamental series of policies” then I would be encouraged.

But Starmer in government will be as weak and ineffectual as Starmer in opposition.  Tory-Lite In every respect.

C'mon now. Haven't you seen all these fabulous policies that the Jedi lad has posted? 

[Clown Job]

Ian Murray is a very unpleasant individual 

[Antlion]

10 minutes ago, Clown Job said:

Ian Murray is a very unpleasant individual 

Any particular thing he’s done now, or is this just an observation on a universal truth?

[Guest Jedi]

3 hours ago, Day of the Lords said:

C'mon now. Haven't you seen all these fabulous policies that the Jedi lad has posted? 

The ones which are the same as the SNP propose/have done in many cases you mean?

Green New Deal (same)

Increase the minimum wage/have a living wage (same)

rail nationalisation (same/done)

Increase Health spending/have a National Care service (same)

Freeze income tax rates/bands (same)

Windfall tax on energy (same)

Massive home insulation roll out to reduce energy bills (same)

Tackle misogyny (same)

Better rights and protections for tenants (same)

increase home ownership and increase social housing (same)

points based immigration system/visa criteria (same)

Make Brexit work (who knows what that means, maybe join EFTA)/rejoin the EU

So if Labour are Tory lite........?

Or is the truth that the only real line in policy is essentially that one wants Independence and the other doesnt?

And no, I'm not an Ian Murray fan either.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Jedi

[Dawson Park Boy]

51 minutes ago, Clown Job said:

Ian Murray is a very unpleasant individual 

Would never vote Labour but always thought Murray was one of the better ones.

[Guest Jedi]

The whole question of 'what does Labour offer Scotland'? The answer (always) 'nothing'.....

Apart from being on the 'same' policy pretty much, as the SNP on Health, Education, The Environment, Employment rights, Housing, Child Care, a living/minimum wage, nationalisation of public services, points based immigration, taxation, tenants rights, opposition to fracking, a points based immigration system, PR voting system, abolition of the H of L.

From that list, if Labour are Tory lite/same as the Tories, are the SNP in the same boat?

Ultimately, Starmer will enter a GE saying 'no deals with the SNP/No ref' etc. However....'if' the SNP return 50 plus seats, and Labour have a majority, it may well be that the Labour govt reneges on the Referendum, looks at it, and decides 'okay, given that you entered the GE entirely on that pledge and got 50 plus seats, you can have a Ref towards the end of this parliament'. There would almost certainly be some movement on Scotland. By contrast with a Tory govt you know that they would definitely refuse one, whatever the result. It is very different saying 'no' to a deal with the SNP, if post-election the numbers allow an accommodation. 

And again, on Brexit...a move towards EFTA etc would be on the table for the UK, making it much easier for an Independent Scotland to move back into Europe.

So, a Labour govt...chance of a Ref (and a policy platform which pretty much mirrors a lot of what the SNP also suggest).....or another Tory govt-definitely no Ref.

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Jedi

[Brother Blades]

14 minutes ago, Jedi said:

The whole question of 'what does Labour offer Scotland'? The answer (always) 'nothing'.....

Apart from being on the 'same' policy pretty much, as the SNP on Health, Education, The Environment, Employment rights, Housing, Child Care, a living/minimum wage, nationalisation of public services, points based immigration, taxation, tenants rights, opposition to fracking, a points based immigration system, PR voting system, abolition of the H of L.

From that list, if Labour are Tory lite/same as the Tories, are the SNP in the same boat?

Ultimately, Starmer will enter a GE saying 'no deals with the SNP/No ref' etc. However....'if' the SNP return 50 plus seats, and Labour have a majority, it may well be that the Labour govt reneges on the Referendum, looks at it, and decides 'okay, given that you entered the GE entirely on that pledge and got 50 plus seats, you can have a Ref towards the end of this parliament'. There would almost certainly be some movement on Scotland. By contrast with a Tory govt you know that they would definitely refuse one, whatever the result. It is very different saying 'no' to a deal with the SNP, if post-election the numbers allow an accommodation. 

And again, on Brexit...a move towards EFTA etc would be on the table for the UK, making it much easier for an Independent Scotland to move back into Europe.

So, a Labour givt...chance of a Ref (and a policy platform which pretty much mirrors a lot of what the SNP also suggest).....or another Tory govt-definitely no Ref.

 

Can you provide one iota of evidence that Starmer would allow a referendum, similarly “make Brexit work” any sliver of a hint that that may mean EFTA?

Actually, don’t bother, Labour will never get my vote after standing shoulder to shoulder with the Tories in 2014. 

[Guest Jedi]

6 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

Can you provide one iota of evidence that Starmer would allow a referendum, similarly “make Brexit work” any sliver of a hint that that may mean EFTA?

Actually, don’t bother, Labour will never get my vote after standing shoulder to shoulder with the Tories in 2014. 

But there we have it.....'shoulder to shoulder', Murphy on his Irn-Bru crate, the Vow....all from 8 years  ago.

Nobody of course can predict what would happen post-GE. The likelihood is though, that with a Tory govt definitely no Ref, a Labour govt...there is an opportunity. 

EFTA wise, there are various people around Stephen Kinnock who continue to push for/are keen on this.

 

[Benjamin_Nevis]

1 hour ago, Jedi said:

The ones which are the same as the SNP propose/have done in many cases you mean?

Green New Deal (same)

Increase the minimum wage/have a living wage (same)

rail nationalisation (same/done)

Increase Health spending/have a National Care service (same)

Freeze income tax rates/bands (same)

Windfall tax on energy (same)

Massive home insulation roll out to reduce energy bills (same)

Tackle misogyny (same)

Better rights and protections for tenants (same)

increase home ownership and increase social housing (same)

points based immigration system/visa criteria (same)

Make Brexit work (who knows what that means, maybe join EFTA)/rejoin the EU

So if Labour are Tory lite........?

Or is the truth that the only real line in policy is essentially that one wants Independence and the other doesnt?

And no, I'm not an Ian Murray fan either.

I hate to break this to you, but your wee wish list does not = the next Labour manifesto. 

Also, Starmer and pretty much his entire front bench are diametrically opposed to another referendum, let alone independence. Indeed the Shadow "Levelling Up" Minister referenced a "Spanish" style/Catalonia solution to another "divisive" IndyRef. 

I think therefore that any notion we can trust that Labour might allow us a vote if we ask really really nicely can be filed in the nearest available bin. 

 

[Guest Jedi]

52 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said:

I hate to break this to you, but your wee wish list does not = the next Labour manifesto. 

Also, Starmer and pretty much his entire front bench are diametrically opposed to another referendum, let alone independence. Indeed the Shadow "Levelling Up" Minister referenced a "Spanish" style/Catalonia solution to another "divisive" IndyRef. 

I think therefore that any notion we can trust that Labour might allow us a vote if we ask really really nicely can be filed in the nearest available bin. 

 

Hardly a 'wish list' given recent Conference policy announcements. 

Ultimately, unless the Supreme Court comes through in the next few months (who knows, maybe it will/maybe it won't), the only other route to a Ref is Westminster granting a Section 20. Good luck with a Tory govt ever doing that. You can bin the notion of a Labour govt ever granting one either, but of the 2 potential UK govts, which one looks more likely? The one which is generally in the same ball park as the SNP on policy, or the Tories?

There is no Plan C.....either the Supreme Court result goes the right way (A) or a sufficient number of SNP seats at a GE persuades a (Labour) govt to grant a Ref (B)....

Edited November 3, 2022 by Jedi

[williemillersmoustache]

Another fascinating episode of "Lets form our view of the British Labour and Unionist Party by entirely ignoring all of the things they have said and done, and instead based solely on the very very slim, and arguable premise that they're not the Tories and extrapolating an admittedly appealing fantasy Party from that point which bears absolutely no relation to reality, in order to argue the SNP are bad and we should just fall in line and vote for them like good little jocks.' 

[Benjamin_Nevis]

7 hours ago, Jedi said:

Hardly a 'wish list' given recent Conference policy announcements. 

Ultimately, unless the Supreme Court comes through in the next few months (who knows, maybe it will/maybe it won't), the only other route to a Ref is Westminster granting a Section 20. Good luck with a Tory govt ever doing that. You can bin the notion of a Labour govt ever granting one either, but of the 2 potential UK govts, which one looks more likely? The one which is generally in the same ball park as the SNP on policy, or the Tories?

There is no Plan C.....either the Supreme Court result goes the right way (A) or a sufficient number of SNP seats at a GE persuades a (Labour) govt to grant a Ref (B)....

So at the same time that "you can bin the notion of a labour govt ever granting one either" we should give Labour a chance because they "look more likely to". 

Eh no thanks mate. You won't persuade a single poster on here to vote Labour with a ludicrous argument like that, and indeed if the North British Accounting Unit still views Scottish voters in such a way, it has clearly learned absolutely nothing from its many, many previous electoral rinsings. 

[Guest Jedi]

21 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said:

So at the same time that "you can bin the notion of a labour govt ever granting one either" we should give Labour a chance because they "look more likely to". 

Eh no thanks mate. You won't persuade a single poster on here to vote Labour with a ludicrous argument like that, and indeed if the North British Accounting Unit still views Scottish voters in such a way, it has clearly learned absolutely nothing from its many, many previous electoral rinsings. 

Ludicrous notion...so Supreme Court says No..how are you becoming Independent?

Given that Plan B is to stand on a single ticket to negotiate Independence in 2 years..but you say 'any' Westminster govt will say no to that anyway.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Jedi

[Guest Jedi]

13 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

If I thought for one minute that Labour was looking at the imbalance of political resources, the implacability of the mindset of typical Little Englander and the natural conservatism of the MSM and thinking “f**k it we will say whatever we need to win an election and once we do will embark on a radical and fundamental series of policies” then I would be encouraged.

 

Like Corbyn did for a few years you mean.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

3 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Given that Plan B is to stand on a single ticket to negotiate Independence in 2 years..but you say 'any' Westminster govt will say no to that anyway.

Erm, you just said that as well 

As have at various points Labour's leader and entire front bench. As i say Labour are going to have to do a lot more to win Scottish votes than a wish list which largely won't make it into a manifesto and a 1% chance of agreeing to a referendum. 

[HTG]

There is zero point in anyone voting Labour in the hope that that they'll be more likely than the tories to grant a referendum. Labour will never do it. They're far more dependent on soft tory voters in England than they are on SNP voters in Scotland. 

Thereafter, the question of voting Labour is one that is baked into an unchanged and potentially unchangeable UK. 

Given that SLAB loathes those of us who favour an independent Scotland, I will never vote for them. That's the same SLAB who are part of the British Labour Party and who, according to Jedi, have much more in common with the SNP on matters of policy than they do with the tories. Yet, they've jumped into bed with the tories in multiple Scottish councils to push aside the party which had the highest vote share. 

We know where we stand with Labour. Ian Murray is their shining example. 

Whatever the route to independence might look like, Labour are at the very heart of stopping it from happening. On that basis, they can f**k off. 

[strichener]

On 01/11/2022 at 23:07, Antlion said:

Except for all the criticism of Sturgeon and the SNP on P&B. Top tip: if you venture out of the “What is the point in Labour” thread, you might see some.

Not from you.  You are too busy banding "English Nationalist", "Unionist" etc. at anybody that does not back the SNP.

Edited November 3, 2022 by strichener

[Antlion]

5 minutes ago, strichener said:

Not from you.  You are too busy banding "English Nationalist", "Unionist" etc. at anybody that does not back the SNP.

Odd - I don’t particularly like or back the uninspiring SNP. They’re a means to an end and frankly I’d look forward to them getting a shoeing after independence.