What is the point of labour ?

[Detournement]

62% of voters chose UK wide parties at the last election.

 

 

 

[BawWatchin]

1 minute ago, Detournement said:

62% of voters chose UK wide parties at the last election.

Is this honestly the strength of your arguement? That it doesn't matter that Scotland has zero influence on political outcomes in the UK, thus having no control over decisions made at UK level, because we have the option of voting for those parties we don't want each general election?

[O'Kelly Isley III]

I don't see English people as inherently unable to vote for a better society so we will have to disagree on that.

Why do your posts always remind me of the effete Scottish civil servant Ian MacDonald of Falklands War fame, he of the 'Late this afternoon, three Pucaras of the Queen's Flight....' type of delivery to press conferences ?

He was from Clydebank, apparently the Downton Abbey end of Whitecrook.

[doulikefish]

H B telling us its all about the policy.A quick check of hansard tells us which party is a serial abstainer when it comes to matters of tory policy [emoji6]

[John Lambies Doos]

H B telling us its all about the policy.A quick check of hansard tells us which party is a serial abstainer when it comes to matters of tory policy [emoji6]

See this is the point. Labour and in fact the Lib Dems had the opportunity to vote very important government brexit policy down recently and they cocked it up

[Detournement]

How could Labour make Field, Mann, Stringer and Hoey vote against their will?

[BawWatchin]

2 minutes ago, Detournement said:

How could Labour make Field, Mann, Stringer and Hoey vote against their will?

Ever heard of a party whip? If the whip is broken, then those responsible can ultimately be expelled from the party. The vote they rebelled against had no such whip.

[Detournement]

It was whipped.

Mann and Field have both since left the party. Stringer and Hoey won't be Labour candidates at the next election.

[Jambo: First Blood]

19 hours ago, BawWatchin said:

Don't be silly, the US are too busy killing their own people to be involved in a thing like that.

Despite the obvious problems and iniquities with the US police system I don't think they are unjustly arresting and imprisoning thousands of political prisoners nor engaging in thousands of unlawful executions to maintain their grip on power in a collapsing society:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.dw.com/en/venezuela-government-committed-crimes-against-humanity-report/a-43988546

Even with Trump and all the other problems it's ridiculous to truly compare the two.

Edited October 2, 2018 by Jambo: First Blood

[BawWatchin]

2 minutes ago, Jambo: First Blood said:

Despite the obvious problems and iniquities with the US police system I don't think they are unjustly arrested and imprisoning thousands of prisoners not engaging in thousands of unlawful executions to maintain their grip on power in a collapsing society:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.dw.com/en/venezuela-government-committed-crimes-against-humanity-report/a-43988546

Even with Trump and all the other problems it's ridiculous to truly compare the two.

Nah, they're just poisoning their own people with chemtrails and microwave radiation signals, along with the occasional massacre when they want to invade and plumage another country.

I suppose being more secretive about it makes it ok.

[NotThePars]

9 minutes ago, Jambo: First Blood said:

Despite the obvious problems and iniquities with the US police system I don't think they are unjustly arrested and imprisoning thousands of prisoners not engaging in thousands of unlawful executions to maintain their grip on power in a collapsing society:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.dw.com/en/venezuela-government-committed-crimes-against-humanity-report/a-43988546

Even with Trump and all the other problems it's ridiculous to truly compare the two.

 

Tbf America is happy with widespread incarceration and voter suppression at home while assassinating thousands of people abroad on dubious legal ground and that's without even an ounce of the economic or political pressure Venezuela are under.

[Jambo: First Blood]

8 minutes ago, BawWatchin said:

Nah, they're just poisoning their own people with chemtrails and microwave radiation signals, along with the occasional massacre when they want to invade and plumage another country.

I suppose being more secretive about it makes it ok.

Ok you're not serious. Good to know.

[Jambo: First Blood]

10 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

Tbf America is happy with widespread incarceration and voter suppression at home while assassinating thousands of people abroad on dubious legal ground and that's without even an ounce of the economic or political pressure Venezuela are under.

There is a big racial bias problem to incarceration in the US - no question but to talk of voter suppression, which exists in the US, however cannot be disfavourably compared to the Venezualen regime.

Venezuela is under sanctions, many of which mainly hit government connected upper classes, but I don't see how that justifies the lawless and cruel violation of human rights in Venezuela.

Edited October 2, 2018 by Jambo: First Blood

[BawWatchin]

4 minutes ago, Jambo: First Blood said:

Ok you're not serious. Good to know.

I'm DEAD serious m8.

If you're honestly so behind in these matters that they make no sense to you, then i'm not surprised you're such a huge supporter of rule britannia.

I suggest you look into the "Eugene Signal".

Edited October 2, 2018 by BawWatchin

[Jambo: First Blood]

1 minute ago, BawWatchin said:

I'm DEAD serious m8.

If you're honestly so behind in these matters that they make no sense to you, then i'm not surprised you're such a huge supporter of rule britannia.

At what point did I say or imply that I was a "huge supporter of rule brittania"? You're all over the place here.

[BawWatchin]

Just now, Jambo: First Blood said:

At what point did I say or imply that I was a "huge supporter of rule brittania"? You're all over the place here.

You support Britains rule over Scotland do you not?

[Jambo: First Blood]

1 minute ago, BawWatchin said:

You support Britains rule over Scotland do you not?

No I actually think independence would be a good way out due to the Brexit mess and huge failures of the two main Westminster parties.

[Jambo: First Blood]

7 minutes ago, BawWatchin said:

I suggest you look into the "Eugene Signal".

Ah cool so you genuinely believe that Alex Jones chemtrails pish. Good to know.

[BawWatchin]

Just now, Jambo: First Blood said:

Ah cool so you genuinely believe that Alex Jones chemtrails pish. Good to know.

Are you one of these people who automatically writes things off without even bothering to look into it, just because one person you don't happen to like has done so themselves?

If you actually took the time to look into things instead of spouting crap about how whiter than white western government is, there's a good chance you'd actually learn something.

[renton]

Ralph Milliband was right about the parliamentary Labour party. The Westminster system is incredibly good at absorbing threats to it's own integrity. 

Not sure using the personality and outlook of guys like Swinney and Blackford to make unflattering comparisons to those new gods of socialism, Corbyn and Mcdonnell is entirely relevent. All those men will be gone, sooner or later, and in the latter case if that passing leaves the Labour party in the hands of the Ummunas and Kendalls of this world then all the left wing posturing will have been for nothing.

Guarenteeing the proper provision of services and enacting lasting changes in society for the better relies on having the correct structures in place. It means having representatives far closer to their constituents, it means proper oversight and revision control of policy, it means clear demarcation of constitutional powers between various government levels. 

Therefore I believe that Scottish independence is the necessary pre-cursor to delivering the kind of lasting change that Scotland needs. Even the most radical, Corbyn led government could have its achievements wiped out by a 5% swing in a few vital constituencies. The only natural law of Westminster is the tyranny of the majority.

That won't change. Westminster is a system that cossets its members in privilege. That successfully co-opts even the toughest rebels. 30 years of Labour majority government have failed to revise that place in any meaningful way. An inbuilt sense of privilege, propped up by a civil service with its own traditions, and narrow pool of talent and sclerotic sense of change has created a ruling class above and seperate from the electorate.

Thats not a bug of the system, its a design feature.

And while within Scotland there are class divisions and competing interests, the populace are all still connected by a shared geography, shared infrastructure and shared services, by that all important near imaginary sense of shared self that makes up so much of culture, history and ultimately nationhood. Whether rational or not, it persists on both sides of the border and its within that context that the influence of Scotland's Westminster representatives should be viewed. 

The demographics of Scotland massively restrict it's bloc influence on UK politics. Taking the two extreme cases: 59 MPs from on of the two major UK parties and 59 MPs from a Scottish-centric party. In the former those 59 are ultimately subjected to party loyalty, in the latter all 59 are insufficent to move the parliamentary arithmetic in all but a few cases. Only threading the needle of a Labour minority government propped up by the SNP could really give Scotland bargaining power as a collective. A scenario used to scare English voters at the last election. Even if it came to pass its still not a great excersize in democracy, relying on large monolitgic blocs from a couple of parties to bargain over vast tracts of policy that scotland relies on.

If the situation is Corbyn or May, then its Corbyn every day. However, such fragile gains as may be made by Corbyn could easily be lost and lost quickly through a combination of a party only loosely aligned with Corbyn principles in a system at Westminster designed to push back against radical thought.

So yeah, tl;dr - I see Scottish independence as the vital pre-cursor to delivering lasting, better change for Scotland.