What is the point of labour ?

[Wee-Bey]

Fantastic posting from Renton there.

[Arsenal till I die]

On ‎02‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 09:07, ONeils4Oyarder said:

I only read this forum at a glance on most days, but you are an utter halfwit if you believe what you have typed here.

S/he is right. Whether or not Labour fulfil that point or not is another question.

[Detournement]

13 hours ago, renton said:

Therefore I believe that Scottish independence is the necessary pre-cursor to delivering the kind of lasting change that Scotland needs. Even the most radical, Corbyn led government could have its achievements wiped out by a 5% swing in a few vital constituencies. The only natural law of Westminster is the tyranny of the majority.

That's not true at all. If a Labour government legislates properly then it's very difficult to erase those achievements. That's why we still have the NHS and an existing welfare system.

I also think you are being very naive if you think Scotland has less significantly less ingrained inequalities than the UK as a whole. Independence would be followed by the need to fight the same fights which are currently being fought on a UK level. In an independent Scotland you would immediately see owners of capital making huge efforts to establish a strong right wing presence in the media, civil service and society which would join forces with the Growth Commission/Third Way people in the SNP.

I voted Yes in 2014 because it looked like the best route to socialism but things have changed since then. Now I think that England has actually moved further to the left than Scotland due to being more exposed to neoliberalism and services being completely fucked due to underfunding combined with population explosion. If you watched or followed the Labour Party conference it's clear where the energy and drive for a more progressive society lies at the moment.

 

[git-intae-thum]

4 minutes ago, Detournement said:

That's not true at all. If a Labour government legislates properly then it's very difficult to erase those achievements. That's why we still have the NHS and an existing welfare system.

I also think you are being very naive if you think Scotland has less significantly less ingrained inequalities than the UK as a whole. Independence would be followed by the need to fight the same fights which are currently being fought on a UK level. In an independent Scotland you would immediately see owners of capital making huge efforts to establish a strong right wing presence in the media, civil service and society which would join forces with the Growth Commission/Third Way people in the SNP.

I voted Yes in 2014 because it looked like the best route to socialism but things have changed since then. Now I think that England has actually moved further to the left than Scotland due to being more exposed to neoliberalism and services being completely fucked due to underfunding combined with population explosion. If you watched or followed the Labour Party conference it's clear where the energy and drive for a more progressive society lies at the moment.

 

Pish

[Ira Gaines]

HB's "I voted Yes" patter is about as believable as the previous "I voted the SNP" patter.

[Pocketman]

15 minutes ago, Detournement said:

That's not true at all. If a Labour government legislates properly then it's very difficult to erase those achievements. That's why we still have the NHS and an existing welfare system

 

well, Labour in opposition is a measure of their ability to (potentially) govern and legislate properly. you refer to the welfare system - the Welfare Reform Bill included the introduction of Universal Credit and the overall reduction of welfare spending by £12bn.  

Labour were instrumental in the passing of that Bill. So when you talk about an existing Welfare System, we are talking about a punitive system that punishes the most vulnerable in society and Labour were instrumental in the introduction of that current system.

A real measure of their progressive  credentials. 

 

[Detournement]

They weren't instrumental at all. The Tories has a majority and every Tory MP voted for it.

You are correct that abstaining was a disgrace and the Labour membership reacted by changing the course of the party by electing Corbyn.

It's telling that the SNP fanboys can't engage with any Labour policies post October 2015.

[Pocketman]

23 minutes ago, Detournement said:

They weren't instrumental at all. The Tories has a majority and every Tory MP voted for it.

You are correct that abstaining was a disgrace and the Labour membership reacted by changing the course of the party by electing Corbyn.

It's telling that the SNP fanboys can't engage with any Labour policies post October 2015.

so those MPs that abstained are no longer MPs under Corbyn? good to know. 

[NotThePars]

so those MPs that abstained are no longer MPs under Corbyn? good to know. 

If the NEC don’t shit the bed on mandatory reselection then a lot of those MPs won’t be there for much longer.

RE indy, renton’s post encapsulates it. There’s a distinct lack of left wing energy in Scotland atm but I feel we’ve more of a chance in battling a right wing presence that will have to cement its position in a new landscape than one that’s has centuries to build up its base.

[J_Stewart]

37 minutes ago, Detournement said:

They weren't instrumental at all. The Tories has a majority and every Tory MP voted for it.

You are correct that abstaining was a disgrace and the Labour membership reacted by changing the course of the party by electing Corbyn.

It's telling that the SNP fanboys can't engage with any Labour policies post October 2015.

Do you mean policies like scrapping tuition fees, or increased free childcare, or maintaining the triple lock on pensions?

Why would an "SNP fanboy" argue with those policies, when they've been SNP policy for years prior to October 2015, and those "SNP fanboys" already voted for them?

Step your game up, Anthony.

[Detournement]

There was a lot more than that in the Labour manifesto last year and more policies announced at the conference. Labour have set out a left wing vision to rebalance society back towards the interests of ordinary people. The SNP gave us the Growth Commission.

The SNP get by on managerial competence at Holyrood but they are being left behind in terms of envisioning a better society.

 

 

[jakedee]

There was a lot more than that in the Labour manifesto last year and more policies announced at the conference. Labour have set out a left wing vision to rebalance society back towards the interests of ordinary people. The SNP gave us the Growth Commission.
The SNP get by on managerial competence at Holyrood but they are being left behind in terms of envisioning a better society.
 
 

The SNP are delivering these policies,what's Labours record ? Saying one thing when in opposition and failing to deliver is a Labour trait.

[Detournement]

Just now, jakedee said:

The SNP are delivering these policies,what's Labours record ? Saying one thing when in opposition and failing to deliver is a Labour trait.

The SNP are delivering Tory austerity.

Austerity only ends with a left wing Labour government.

[jakedee]

The SNP are delivering Tory austerity.
Austerity only ends with a left wing Labour government.

Good to see there's no denial of Labour not being trusted to deliver their policies, we're getting somewhere.

[Crossbill]

Are Labour in Wales also delivering Tory austerity?  

In fact, are they delivering Tory Austerity Max?

[Pocketman]

7 minutes ago, jakedee said:

12 minutes ago, Detournement said:

The SNP are delivering Tory austerity.
Austerity only ends with a left wing Labour government.

Good to see there's no denial of Labour not being trusted to deliver their policies, we're getting somewhere.

you had Original Labour, then you had New Labour and the splinter Scottish Labour, and now we have Left Wing Labour - all making promises in opposition that their track record shows will be completely shelved if they manage to get into power. 

[BawWatchin]

18 minutes ago, Detournement said:

The SNP are delivering Tory austerity.

Austerity only ends with a left wing Labour government.

I think you'll find that it's the tories that are delivering tory austerity. I think you'll also find that if everybody in Scotland voted for Labour in the previous general election, we'd still be in this position with a majority tory government delivering tory austerity. I think you'll also find that while the tories are delivering their austerity, Labour MPs are quite happy to sit on their hands and not even attempt to challenge these measures.

This is this wonderful "union" that you don't want to let go.

Edited October 3, 2018 by BawWatchin

[Benjamin_Nevis]

H_B [emoji38]

Well at least he isn't ruining Misc Football with Supras.

[Detournement]

8 minutes ago, BawWatchin said:

I think you'll find that it's the tories that are delivering tory austerity. I think you'll also find that if everybody in Scotland voted for Labour in the previous general election, we'd still be in this position with a majority tory government delivering tory austerity.

Do you know what year it is?

[BawWatchin]

1 minute ago, Detournement said:

Do you know what year it is?

Sure do. It's the year Scotland is dragged out of the EU and the single market while the Scottish Parliament is systematically dismantled by a UK Government that no longer needs to follow EU regulations that were in place to protect the Scottish Parliament.

Do you know what year it is?