10 Years Ago

[TheScarf]

I read (possibly on this very website) that she’s now pro-Indy.

[CarrbridgeSaintee]

The following won’t be popular amongst you all, but it’s how I and many others feel.

As someone who cherishes his British identity, I’m glad that splitting up the country seems as far away as ever.

After ten years of agitation, the main voice of independence - The SNP - has basically dropped the idea of forcing another referendum on Scots any time soon.

Ten years ago we dodged a bullet, thankfully.

I’ll have a wee whisky tonight.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

5 hours ago, Leith Green said:

Ten years has gone in a flash.

The country is definitely not "better together", and while Independence would not have been a cakewalk we would probably have been emerging into a better place about now.

However, here we are -

We are now a resource rich country, but will continue to have large parts of its population in relative and actual poverty, some awful housing and transport infrastructure thats only any good if you live in the central belt.

Allied to that, we have been dragged out of Europe and the UK and Scottish economies are consequently smaller and poorer.

Scotlands renewable energy resources? They will continue to benefit "the wider UK" and bizarrely keep energy bills high in the very country that is de facto self sufficient in Electricity - its "Black Gold MK II".

Its no surprise that there are no electricity interconnectors going directly from Scotland to Europe - Westminster needs to keep us in line.

A Labour Govt in Westminster who are (if anything) even more opposed to Independence than the Tories and the shambles of a governing party up here will mean we have no chance of another referendum anyway.

But its not all Westminsters fault - we have a governing party (SNP) which is a f**king shambles - and Alba seen as a bunch of bampots. 

Frankly, we shot ourselves in the foot and pretty much proved the Westminster point that Scotland doesnt have the intellectual capacity* among its politicians to run a country all by itself.

It was horrible going into the GE and voting SNP when I knew it was pointless and I would - again wake up to the moon faced kunt Ian Murray as my MP.

 

 

*I dont believe this, but - by christ - some of those in the SNP govt I wouldnt allow to run a bowling club.

This is probably where I am too.  The real tragedy for myself as a Yes voter was not the outcome of the Referendum per se, but the way in which the tide of political capital in favour of Independence was almost wilfully pissed away by successive  SNP leaders and administrations.

The first UK General Election following the vote was almost a complete wipeout of Unionist parties, so the dream had definitely not died at that point.  That was a huge bank of political opinion on which to cement honest, unshowy and most importantly competent performance in order to build confidence not only in committed nationalists but also a sizeable body of Scottish electors willing to be convinced.  Even allowing for COVID and what followed, the rot had already set in.

Salmond and Sturgeon went from titans to tits as indulgent internal mayhem ensued, and as they exited it all became a bit like that closing scene in The Wizard Of Oz when the curtain is pulled back and we are looking at a tired, uninspiring man.  And that's about where we are today.

f**ked.

 

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, TheScarf said:

I read (possibly on this very website) that she’s now pro-Indy.

Don’t believe anything you read on here!

[Jacksgranda]

It'll be 15 years before another independence referendum, possibly 10.

That'll be the "once in a generation" chance worn out.

[MEADOWXI]

7 hours ago, Black_and_White_Stripes said:

I've got an interest in Irish history, and it's interesting to see how the independence movement took off there. Obviously, there are big differences - Irish independence was partly inspired by the historical persecution of Catholics by the British state (and particularly Cromwell); the Famine was a stark reminder of the indifference to, or even contempt towards, the Irish people, and saw the population decimated; Irish Republicanism was revolutionary and the martyrs of 1916 in particular galvanised the movement.

However, what lots of people forget is that nationalists emphasised and romanticised Irish culture and language, known as the Gaelic Revival. In particular the Gaelic Athletic Association and the Irish language were heavily promoted, along with socialist politics and the Catholic Church (which was particularly important to De Valera). We live in a very different world now, but still, I wonder whether similar things can be done in Scotland with Gaelic* and, erm, shinty? 

What is the purpose of Scottish independence? Is for economic purposes? A vehicle to establish a socialist Republic? To re-assert Scottish identity? Simply self-government, because the British state has had its day and is no longer necessary or relevant? To re-join the EU?

I suspect most people have their own vision of what an independent Scotland would be and it's currently an umbrella movement that encompasses lots of disparate groups.

 

* It seems to me, and it is only my opinion, that whilst lots of Gaelic speakers are nationalists, some aren't and would be annoyed by the politicisation of the language.

 

 

 

I am not SNP, but I can see the benefits for Independence, and should it come I would hope for a healthy Parliament with various parties in it.

The politicisation of the language or culture would be more divisive than the already sections that are claiming the flag, it is not the Independence flag, or the SNP flag or the ALBA flag, it is the St Andrews Cross of Scotland, all Scotland and you do not have to be an independence supporter to be proud of it.

The claim of the St Andrews cross by some is as bad as the way the far right and EFL and Tommy Robinson and all the Gammons claim the Union flag or the St George's cross. It is not them to claim as I'm sure may moderates throughout England would state.

[Pocketman]

1 hour ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said:

The following won’t be popular amongst you all, but it’s how I and many others feel.

As someone who cherishes his British identity, I’m glad that splitting up the country seems as far away as ever.

After ten years of agitation, the main voice of independence - The SNP - has basically dropped the idea of forcing another referendum on Scots any time soon.

Ten years ago we dodged a bullet, thankfully.

I’ll have a wee whisky tonight.

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, Jacksgranda said:

It'll be 15 years before another independence referendum, possibly 10.

That'll be the "once in a generation" chance worn out.

The ‘once in a generation’ argument is absolute nonsense.

It was an off the cuff remark by someone who was politically relevant at the time but hasn’t been for years and had no validity when it was made or since.

If at the subsequent GE or SP election 90% of people had voted for a pro-Independence party how could the ‘once in generation’ argument hold.

Mind you 90% of people could vote for pro-Independence party now and we’d have no ‘right’ to a Referendum.

[Jacksgranda]

1 minute ago, Granny Danger said:

The ‘once in a generation’ argument is absolute nonsense.

It was an off the cuff remark by someone who was politically relevant at the time but hasn’t been for years and had no validity when it was made or since.

If at the subsequent GE or SP election 90% of people had voted for a pro-Independence party how could the ‘once in generation’ argument hold.

Mind you 90% of people could vote for pro-Independence party now and we’d have no ‘right’ to a Referendum.

Calm down, you're going to spill your wine! I didn't say it ever had any validity, I just said in another 10  years it would have no traction at all.

[Groundhopping Adventures]

I know this website is far more male, left leaning, pro indy than the general population but "the vast majority of Scots have moved on" is the most ridiculous thing posted on here this side of the Junior Forum

[A Diamond For Me]

I've never understood why people who cherish a British or Scottish identity think they need a state to secure that identity for them.  People have cherished a Scottish identity while living in the British state for many generations, is British identity so fragile a thing that without the Prime Minister telling you how much you respect the king it'd just vanish like haar in the sun? 

[GallowayBlue]

I notice that John Swinney has been talking about the "Yes Generation" with 600,000 newly registered young voters since 2014 heading for 1,000,000 soon.

However if you consider that along with the fact that a similar number of people have probably been removed from the voting register in that time (deaths mainly), why has polling stayed basically at the same level?

I'm sure we'd all like to buy into the matter of time argument but why does it not seem to be playing out that way and why should we think that over time we will naturally arrive at a "yes" majority?

[Lex]

35 minutes ago, GallowayBlue said:

I notice that John Swinney has been talking about the "Yes Generation" with 600,000 newly registered young voters since 2014 heading for 1,000,000 soon.

However if you consider that along with the fact that a similar number of people have probably been removed from the voting register in that time (deaths mainly), why has polling stayed basically at the same level?

I'm sure we'd all like to buy into the matter of time argument but why does it not seem to be playing out that way and why should we think that over time we will naturally arrive at a "yes" majority?

Because people move from YES to NO as they get older and naturally become more risk averse.

It's easy to be a YES supporter when you're a 21 year old student with no job or dependents, you don't have a lot to lose if it all goes tits up. By the time you're 41 and you've got a mortgage, a job, a pension and a family it's a far harder punt to take.

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

Thank god for the no vote. We would have been out of the EU, Pensioners wouldn't be able to afford to heat their homes and the economy would be in the bin with years of austerity on the horizon.

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, Jacksgranda said:

Calm down, you're going to spill your wine! I didn't say it ever had any validity, I just said in another 10  years it would have no traction at all.

No you didn’t and I didn’t say that you had.  However you did mention it and I responded.

[Pocketman]

30 minutes ago, Lex said:

Because people move from YES to NO as they get older and naturally become more risk averse.

It's easy to be a YES supporter when you're a 21 year old student with no job or dependents, you don't have a lot to lose if it all goes tits up. By the time you're 41 and you've got a mortgage, a job, a pension and a family it's a far harder punt to take.

so the past 5 or so years in the UK, and the confirmation of the same to come, doesn't count as tits up in yer book? But no point in changing things, it will only get worse 

 

[I Clavdivs]

1 hour ago, A Diamond For Me said:

I've never understood why people who cherish a British or Scottish identity think they need a state to secure that identity for them.  People have cherished a Scottish identity while living in the British state for many generations, is British identity so fragile a thing that without the Prime Minister telling you how much you respect the king it'd just vanish like haar in the sun? 

I think the subject here is the right and/or need for National Self determination and not strictly Identity .

For the record:

[I Clavdivs]

2 hours ago, Lex said:

Because people move from YES to NO as they get older and naturally become more risk averse.

It's easy to be a YES supporter when you're a 21 year old student with no job or dependents, you don't have a lot to lose if it all goes tits up. By the time you're 41 and you've got a mortgage, a job, a pension and a family it's a far harder punt to take.

The other side of that arguement is that the "Blood and Soil,King and country" unionism of the past is dying out .

Edited yesterday at 18:42 by I Clavdivs

[Chapelhall chap]

I voted Yes in 2014 and would do so again but the English constitution will never allow the close contest to be revisited. I think we had our chance but that's it. 

[Wee-Bey]

Some interesting comments, I'll add my own. I worked on the bins at the time and one of my strongest memories was seeing almost every 2nd house in the schemes with a Yes poster in the window, then going up to Morningside to see the Better Together ones with a few student Yes' thrown in, followed by knocking on a few doors myself one night and having Labour MP Sheila Gilmore knock mine one night and trying to engage her, before she f**ked off immediately after her opening pensions gambit didn't land.

It's a lot easier with hindsight of course, but it's no surprise the polls narrowed and indeed remain very balanced on the issue.

The Yes arguments were and are a very open question to every individual, 'what type of country would you like to live in?'

The No side were and are still, trying to defend the status quo. Easier back then than it is now of course as the increasingly rapid decomposition of social democracy has really turbocharged since the vote.

The campaigns matched this, with the Yes side having some real grassroots and community led groups, ranging from anti nuclear/anti war folk to feminist groups to small business owners and so on. I wouldn't describe it as a fully 'bottom up' movement but it felt very broad.

The No side felt and was imo very top down with Better Together. Exhausting itself with low political cunning, topped up with miserablist nostalgia, leaving little space for any plan or vision for the future. Exemplified by the 'shut up and eat your cereal'.

That's a long post. I'll do post 2014 in another.