Rugby Union

[Doonhamer doon south]

I'm similarly astonished that a man from a borders town has a grudge against another borders town

It's almost breaking news worthy

[dogmc]

I for one am astonished that the chairman of a border club doesn't like an idea from the SRU

In other obvious news is exactly why borders reivers died on their arse. Even south of Scotland in amateur days massively underperformed for the players available to them.

[dogmc]

This looks a right mess at first reading. Top tier of league to be dissolved and teams have to apply for a franchise to be in the super six with no promotion or relegation. No full time pros from Glasgow or embra will be involved. The rest of the league has to adhere to 'strict amateurism'.....clubs don't appear to have been consulted. Sru will subsidise each side with £62.5 k. This isn't looking too great for me. No promotion means there is no incentives for weaker franchises to improve. No players from Glasgow or embra a teams mean no obvious developmental benefit.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

A formal split between Amateur and Semipro clubs might be more popular with the treasurers of clubs just outside the super six than those just within it.

But given that my club generally operate around the 6th tier of the pyramid I realise that I may not be particularly well placed to speculate about goings on at Hawick, Watson's or Ayr

How much do these big clubs turnover? What do they spend on wages? Is 67 grand a huge amount of money in this context?

[topcat(The most tip top)]

The offload was something that came in from the guys that had been in rugby league....especially once rugby league defence coaches had come in and tightened up everything with the luxury of two extra defenders. If you watch rugby on YouTube from 80s n 90s the most striking thing apart from the difference in the size of players is how many line breaks there were. It happened constantly. One other thing which is a running theme amongst my generation is 'when rucking was rucking' n how brutal the footwork was. Anyone who you tubes the Stuart grimes try v Ireland (toony line break ooft) might be impressed by the try.....but watch the beginning where Gordon bulloch takes a ferocious shoeing eta yeah back then trying to 'offload' or play the ball when you were on ground as you were tackled was often a pen. The sh sides pressurised irb for you to be allowed a second or two to pass / offload once tackled.
 
 

[HibeeJibee]

There is an extensive piece in today's Scotland on Sunday, with much the same info as Dogmc summarises above and some other tit-bits. I must say it sounds like a dog's breakfast.

There will be a 6-team "Super Six", under which the existing domestic pyramid will be reorganised into 4 tiers of 12 at the nationwide level (how many times has it flip-flopped from 12 to 10 and back in the top level now)? Interestingly that means up to 8 more clubs playing nationwide overall. Entry to the "Super Six" will be decided by application, and it will then run in its own bubble for 5yrs with no promotion or relegation. It will not involve bespoke teams, or the districts, but a combination of existing club sides and others who will be expected to "amalgamate"! As leaked in advance there will be 4 places reserved to each of Edinburgh, Glasgow, the Borders and the North with the other 2 to go 'elsewhere'. Contrary to obvious expectations they won't get Edinburgh or Glasgow players though why isn't explained. So it could be Ayr, Glasgow Hawks, Stirling County, an Edinburgh "amalgamation" (or Currie?), 'Border Reivers', 'Caledonia'?

They will be subsidised to the tune of £65,000 of coaching staff plus £62,500 for part-time players to combine rugby with outside occupations. That isn't going to even pay half a living salary to half-a-dozen players so it seems underfunded to me unless the clubs and "amalgamations" raise a hell of a lot of ££ themselves...

They will play (very specifically) 15 games in domestic action i.e. thrice, plus 5 games cross-border which presumably means British & Irish Cup.... Again this seems a low number of games to create revenue and keep players ticking-over and interested. Unclear if the implication is a concentrated season of only a few months (so players can work full-time occupations outwith?) or if they'll get drafted out to other clubs.

They have also decided to enforce an absolute amateurism in the rest of the game which must simply encourage a return to the days of brown envelopes, free cars and nod nod wink wink access to jobs with sponsors? Along with points over staleness and effectiveness, I'm unclear why clubs that can afford to pay money like SPFL1/SPFL2 football clubs shouldn't.

Edited August 6, 2017 by HibeeJibee

[afca32]

This sounds absolutely dreadful. How likely is it to happen?

[dogmc]

There is an extensive piece in today's Scotland on Sunday, with much the same info as Dogmc summarises above and some other tit-bits. I must say it sounds like a dog's breakfast.

 

There will be a 6-team "Super Six", under which the existing domestic pyramid will be reorganised into 4 tiers of 12 at the nationwide level (how many times has it flip-flopped from 12 to 10 and back in the top level now)? Interestingly that means up to 8 more clubs playing nationwide overall. Entry to the "Super Six" will be decided by application, and it will then run in its own bubble for 5yrs with no promotion or relegation. It will not involve bespoke teams, or the districts, but a combination of existing club sides and others who will be expected to "amalgamate"! As leaked in advance there will be 4 places reserved to each of Edinburgh, Glasgow, the Borders and the North with the other 2 to go 'elsewhere'. Contrary to obvious expectations they won't get Edinburgh or Glasgow players though why isn't explained. So it could be Ayr, Glasgow Hawks, Stirling County, an Edinburgh "amalgamation" (or Currie?), 'Border Reivers', 'Caledonia'?

 

They will be subsidised to the tune of £65,000 of coaching staff plus £62,500 for part-time players to combine rugby with outside occupations. That isn't going to even pay half a living salary to half-a-dozen players so it seems underfunded to me unless the clubs and "amalgamations" raise a hell of a lot of ££ themselves...

 

They will play (very specifically) 15 games in domestic action i.e. thrice, plus 5 games cross-border which presumably means British & Irish Cup.... Again this seems a low number of games to create revenue and keep players ticking-over and interested. Unclear if the implication is a concentrated season of only a few months (so players can work full-time occupations outwith?) or if they'll get drafted out to other clubs.

 

They have also decided to enforce an absolute amateurism in the rest of the game which must simply encourage a return to the days of brown envelopes, free cars and nod nod wink wink access to jobs with sponsors? Along with points over staleness and effectiveness, I'm unclear why clubs that can afford to pay money like SPFL1/SPFL2 football clubs shouldn't.

What business is it of the sru if clubs want to and can afford to pay players?? It means better strength n conditioning fitter players and higher standards if they can pay their 1st xv. Total nonsense from beginning to end. This would weaken club rugby not strengthen it. Would be delighted if no clubs bid for a franchise

 

[HibeeJibee]

Could see some of the clubs predominant in their own patch - Ayr, Currie, Hawks, Aberdeen, Dundee, Stirling - being tempted by a "higher level" although it will be more monotonous and obviously the finances look fragile if crowds don't materialise.

Don't see why a top-end Border or Edinburgh club would want to leave all their rivalries, or could afford the expense considering supports and sponsor-bases, nevermind ideas of 'amalgamating'.

Edited August 6, 2017 by HibeeJibee

[dogmc]

Could see some of the clubs predominant in their own patch - Ayr, Currie, Hawks, Aberdeen, Dundee, Stirling - being tempted by a "higher level" although it will be more monotonous and obviously the finances look fragile if crowds don't materialise.

Don't see why a top-end Border or Edinburgh club would want to leave all their rivalries, or could afford the expense considering supports and sponsor-bases, nevermind ideas of 'amalgamating'.

I can't see any appeal whatsoever in this and I can't see how it will benefit player development at all. Even with the sru track record of cobbling together bad ideas this stands out as particularly shoddily thought and ill conceived. If the Glasgow n embra fringe players aren't allowed to play then it will certainly not bridge the gap between semi n full pro. The funding is nonsensical and having no promotion or relegation corrupts the entire league structure. This could well damage the good work that has gone on in last decade with no obvious benefits at all. What's more baffling is that clubs don't seem to have been consulted. That's simply staggering. It would be a brave player who signed on for this hoping that a wage will keep coming in for 5 years.

[salmonbuddie]

First three weekends Pro 14 fixtures have been leaked

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/guinness-pro14-fixtures-revealed-find-13434254.amp

[Doonhamer doon south]

I fail to see how the SRU top 6 plan appeals to anyone. There is no player movement up or down the leagues. There seems to be very limited finances available to these franchise clubs. The Franchise clubs are taking a risk and could potentially lose big derby games as hibeejibee says. Its really as I feared a half arsed attempt to upgrade Scottish rugby. With my suggestion earlier in the thread there could be a blank canvas almost. A district championship that brings together the best players within a district. Compensate clubs with players involved. A clear ladder of quality for players and coaches to move up and down. Play the games on days when PRO 14 and domestic rugby not playing so fans aren't picking which game to attend. There was potential to market these franchises and bring in new sponsorship opportunities. There would be interest if nothing else across Scottish rugby and a curiosity to where districts would be or play from. But what we got. Nope sorry the PRO 14 sounds more appealing and not just the quality but the format.

[dogmc]

I fail to see how the SRU top 6 plan appeals to anyone. There is no player movement up or down the leagues. There seems to be very limited finances available to these franchise clubs. The Franchise clubs are taking a risk and could potentially lose big derby games as hibeejibee says. Its really as I feared a half arsed attempt to upgrade Scottish rugby. With my suggestion earlier in the thread there could be a blank canvas almost. A district championship that brings together the best players within a district. Compensate clubs with players involved. A clear ladder of quality for players and coaches to move up and down. Play the games on days when PRO 14 and domestic rugby not playing so fans aren't picking which game to attend. There was potential to market these franchises and bring in new sponsorship opportunities. There would be interest if nothing else across Scottish rugby and a curiosity to where districts would be or play from. But what we got. Nope sorry the PRO 14 sounds more appealing and not just the quality but the format.

Couldn't agree more. £62.5 k won't go far with fewer home games potentially fewer fans per game potentially a drop in membership n sponsorship. It's shambolic really.

[Doonhamer doon south]

Couldn't agree more. £62.5 k won't go far with fewer home games potentially fewer fans per game potentially a drop in membership n sponsorship. It's shambolic really.

It's not so much shambolic as lazy for me. There really was a chance to produce something wow that other nations might look in on and take notice. Scotland has been putting in success after success on and off the pitch in all formats of the game. But this is a swing and a miss.

Anyway enough of slagging it off. How long do the clubs have to apply to be a franchise and any genuine indication as to who the clubs will be. I know a few been mentioned already like.

[dogmc]

It's not so much shambolic as lazy for me. There really was a chance to produce something wow that other nations might look in on and take notice. Scotland has been putting in success after success on and off the pitch in all formats of the game. But this is a swing and a miss.

Anyway enough of slagging it off. How long do the clubs have to apply to be a franchise and any genuine indication as to who the clubs will be. I know a few been mentioned already like.

Not heard any chat about who is interested in bidding or what the process will be. Would imagine club treasurers will be thoroughly grilled before anyone commits. Equally the prospect of enforcing 'strict amateurism' might be a factor. This for me is the least logical of all of these proposals. Clubs could stand to lose vital coaching n playing staff without being able to pay them. I don't see why the SRU would even want to run with this or what they think it will achieve. Are they hoping this will force clubs n players into the new franchise? ?

[Doonhamer doon south]

Not heard any chat about who is interested in bidding or what the process will be. Would imagine club treasurers will be thoroughly grilled before anyone commits. Equally the prospect of enforcing 'strict amateurism' might be a factor. This for me is the least logical of all of these proposals. Clubs could stand to lose vital coaching n playing staff without being able to pay them. I don't see why the SRU would even want to run with this or what they think it will achieve. Are they hoping this will force clubs n players into the new franchise? ?

What happens after 5 years of a closed league. Will it be expanded or disbanded?

[dogmc]

What happens after 5 years of a closed league. Will it be expanded or disbanded?

Yeah another good point

[HibeeJibee]

On timing today's paper says the franchises will not be awarded until autumn 2018, with the "Super Six" starting up for 2019-20; this is a delay on the prior expectation of it starting for 2018-19.

Nothing about what happens at end of 5yrs - presumably the intention would be another round of bidding by existing and new applicants for another X years.

[Doonhamer doon south]

On timing today's paper says the franchises will not be awarded until autumn 2018, with the "Super Six" starting up for 2019-20; this is a delay on the prior expectation of it starting for 2018-19.

Nothing about what happens at end of 5yrs - presumably the intention would be another round of bidding by existing and new applicants for another X years.

Might be a playoff promotion/relegation game

[Mark Connolly]

A cynic might suggest teams like Ayr could do with the cash from the SRU if rumours of their wages are anything to go by.