Israel And The Palestinians (now with added Iran)

[endieinreekie]

Mossad are great.

Hopefully the Israeli ambassador is being given a huge pat on the back and a list of other clowns they can go and take out.

Number one on list, pro-Palestinian Arbroath fan, currently working undercover in Stirling.

[ICTChris]

there is no doubt that this commander had many enemies and there are plenty across the region who wont be shedding tears for his passing. Israel have to be the prime suspects in this though, given the circumstances and history. Politically this will cause some breakage between Israel and its European allies but I think this will end up marked unsolved.

[xbl]

I continue to be surprised at the lack of outcry. Not about the assassination, which I've made no comment on, but the use of British passports. What would people say if the like of Dubai had banned all British workers and tourists because of this? We're not guilty, we didn't do it, those passports were falsified, but we could potentially have been landed with part of the blame. Would people just have accepted this?

Edited February 18, 2010 by xbl

[doulikefish]

I continue to be surprised at the lack of outcry. Not about the assassination, which I've made no comment on, but the use of British passports. What would people say if the like of Dubai had banned all British workers and tourists because of this? We're not guilty, we didn't do it, those passports were falsified, but we could potentially have been landed with part of the blame. Would people just have accepted this?

yawn

[Adam_Wee]

I continue to be surprised at the lack of outcry. Not about the assassination, which I've made no comment on, but the use of British passports. What would people say if the like of Dubai had banned all British workers and tourists because of this? We're not guilty, we didn't do it, those passports were falsified, but we could potentially have been landed with part of the blame. Would people just have accepted this?

But none of that has happened, has it?

What an utterly pointless post.

[KiwiDB]

I continue to be surprised at the lack of outcry. Not about the assassination, which I've made no comment on, but the use of British passports. What would people say if the like of Dubai had banned all British workers and tourists because of this? We're not guilty, we didn't do it, those passports were falsified, but we could potentially have been landed with part of the blame. Would people just have accepted this?

I don't actually get the point you are trying to make here.

[Pink Freud]

It could still be anyone that was behind it, it's not that difficult for a group to get a hold of fake passports if they want them, it doesn't say much for the new "biometric" passports that the UK and US go on about mind you.

Haven't read the whole thread, so this might already have been covered, but they cloned passports that were 2006 vintage, probably because they didn;t have the biometrics.

[Adam_Wee]

I don't actually get the point you are trying to make here.

I'll take a stab in the dark here and guess he was trying to say that the Israeli Government were complicit in the forgery of UK documents, therefore we as citizens of the UK should be outraged and boycott Israel. Or something like that.

XBL, there is some "Free Palestine" graffiti on the wall opposite my house. Was that you by any chance?

[xbl]

But none of that has happened, has it?

What an utterly pointless post.

Its awfully strange. The government and opposition members are in outcry about this issue (the use of passports), the PM wants answers, I think its outragous, the Israeli ambassador has been called in, governments all over Europe are launching investigations, and the reaction on here is (and I quote) "yawn". Are all the European governments overreacting? Should we just continue to not give a f**k about the illegal use of our passports?

I'll take a stab in the dark here and guess he was trying to say that the Israeli Government were complicit in the forgery of UK documents, therefore we as citizens of the UK should be outraged and boycott Israel. Or something like that.

No. I'm saying that questions need to be asked and answered, and that this is an issue which matters, and which people should be looking to get to the bottom of, whoever is responsible. However, if it emerges that Israel WAS involved, AGAIN, then we should take action, just like Thatcher did the last time.

Edited February 18, 2010 by xbl

[doulikefish]

Its awfully strange. The government and opposition members are in outcry about this issue (the use of passports), the PM wants answers, I think its outragous, the Israeli ambassador has been called in, governments all over Europe are launching investigations, and the reaction on here is (and I quote) "yawn". Are all the European governments overreacting? Should we just continue to not give a f**k about the illegal use of our passports?

yawn

[Adam_Wee]

Its awfully strange. The government and opposition members are in outcry about this issue (the use of passports), the PM wants answers, I think its outragous, the Israeli ambassador has been called in, governments all over Europe are launching investigations, and the reaction on here is (and I quote) "yawn". Are all the European governments overreacting? Should we just continue to not give a f**k about the illegal use of our passports?

It's wrong, of course it is, no one is suggesting otherwise, are they? Those involved should be caught and be tried for it.

But why should an average Joe on here be outraged about it?

[Reynard]

Its awfully strange. The government and opposition members are in outcry about this issue (the use of passports), the PM wants answers, I think its outragous, the Israeli ambassador has been called in, governments all over Europe are launching investigations, and the reaction on here is (and I quote) "yawn". Are all the European governments overreacting? Should we just continue to not give a f**k about the illegal use of our passports?

I thought it was quite a good use of an illegal passport. They can have mine if they like.

[xbl]

But why should an average Joe on here be outraged about it?

You have a passport right? Its generally trusted, you get free travel within Europe, it serves as ID. If a British passport is discredited as commonly forged, thanks to repeated incidents like this, then you can say goodbye to that. Look forward to full cavity searches and visas to travel anywhere. Thats why we need to come down hard on whoever is responsible, and we (as the public) need to make sure any investigation doesn't go the way of the BAE or Saudi Arabian investigations.

Doulikefish seems to think its alright. Reynard thinks its alright.

Edited February 18, 2010 by xbl

[KiwiDB]

Haven't read the whole thread, so this might already have been covered, but they cloned passports that were 2006 vintage, probably because they didn;t have the biometrics.

Glad you could clear that up, I had heard it was the new ones but obviously not.

[Reynard]

Its awfully strange. The government and opposition members are in outcry about this issue (the use of passports), the PM wants answers, I think its outragous, the Israeli ambassador has been called in, governments all over Europe are launching investigations, and the reaction on here is (and I quote) "yawn". Are all the European governments overreacting? Should we just continue to not give a f**k about the illegal use of our passports?

No. I'm saying that questions need to be asked and answered, and that this is an issue which matters, and which people should be looking to get to the bottom of, whoever is responsible. However, if it emerges that Israel WAS involved, AGAIN, then we should take action, just like Thatcher did the last time.

They will be. It's doubtful that any of it will become public in the short term though. I'm sure our secret services will be well aware of who did what and to whom. In the meantime officially our government and others will have to play the game and be outraged and all the rest of it. Privately they will be as chuffed as f**k.

[Adam_Wee]

You have a passport right? Its generally trusted, you get free travel within Europe, it serves as ID. If a British passport is discredited as commonly forged, thanks to repeated incidents like this, then you can say goodbye to that. Look forward to full cavity searches and visas to travel anywhere. Thats why we need to come down hard on whoever is responsible, and we (as the public) need to make sure any investigation doesn't go the way of the BAE or Saudi Arabian investigations.

Doulikefish seems to think its alright. Reynard thinks its alright.

You must be awfully naive if you think that this is the first time something like this has happened though.

This kind of thing will have been going on for years, covertly obviously, and we have yet to introduce the measures that you have listed above as a result of it.

It's a non-story.

[ICTChris]

There are a few interesting points in this. There have actually been several arrests made, with three Palestinians being held. Two were extradited to Dubai from Jordan - it is claimed that they are Fatah intelligence operatives, who fled the Gaza Strip following the 2007 conflict between Fatah and Hamas. The Palestinian Authority are denying this and saying that the two detained men are actually members of Hamas' milita. The third man was arrested in Syria and is widely reported to be a Hamas security official. This information could point to several different outcomes - the killing was part of an internal Hamas feud; the killing was carried out by Fatah to weaken their rival; or, the Israeli's had infiltrated Hamas and used high level moles to plan the operation. Another option is that the arrested men have nothing to do with this and their detention is simply the result of a frenzied search by Hamas for double agents, real or perceived.

One other thing I've read - the French and German passports used were entirely fake but the British ones were 'stolen' or 'cloned' from actual people, all British citizens living in Israel. It's all very strange - as I said above I don't think that there will ever be a satisfactory outcome to this. It'll be marked down as 'unsolved'.

[Dunning1874]

The Dubai police have certainly moved much quicker than usual, given the hostility towards "Israel" in this part of the world then if they had evidence it was Mossad we'd certainly know about it.

The Israeli Foreign Minister has said there is no evidence linking the killing to Israel.

Well, duh. Of course he's going to say that.

[ICTChris]

Well, duh. Of course he's going to say that.

I think Israel always adopt a no comment policy when it comes to MOssad operations, the same as most countries do regarding these things.

If I ever fancied assasinating anyone the MIddle East would be the place to do it - everyone will assume Mossad did it and they never deny or confirm anything.

[xbl]

You must be awfully naive if you think that this is the first time something like this has happened though.

This kind of thing will have been going on for years, covertly obviously, and we have yet to introduce the measures that you have listed above as a result of it.

Well, yes. I listed some examples of it in a previous post, specifically, examples of Israel being caught at it.

It's a non-story.

Aye, perhaps if you're a insular halfwit.

There are a few interesting points in this. There have actually been several arrests made, with three Palestinians being held. Two were extradited to Dubai from Jordan - it is claimed that they are Fatah intelligence operatives, who fled the Gaza Strip following the 2007 conflict between Fatah and Hamas. The Palestinian Authority are denying this and saying that the two detained men are actually members of Hamas' milita. The third man was arrested in Syria and is widely reported to be a Hamas security official. This information could point to several different outcomes - the killing was part of an internal Hamas feud; the killing was carried out by Fatah to weaken their rival; or, the Israeli's had infiltrated Hamas and used high level moles to plan the operation. Another option is that the arrested men have nothing to do with this and their detention is simply the result of a frenzied search by Hamas for double agents, real or perceived.

One other thing I've read - the French and German passports used were entirely fake but the British ones were 'stolen' or 'cloned' from actual people, all British citizens living in Israel. It's all very strange - as I said above I don't think that there will ever be a satisfactory outcome to this. It'll be marked down as 'unsolved'.

Is that the the same men that initially fled to Jordan? Its a strange one because this sort of thing doesn't normally make such a big impact, after all, the Israeli secret service are normally pretty efficient. Hopefully some facts do emerge, and we investigate it properly, because this is too interesting to just be swept under the carpet. At least you don't think its a non story!