Israel And The Palestinians (now with added Iran)

[Afro]

Dr Norman Finkelstein, who lost his entire family to the Holocaust, exemplifies why the notion that Judaism is equal to Zionism is wrong.

The guy makes a very, very good point. The way he puts it across is worth watching.

[yoda]

Talking of conspiracies, it's awfully strange that Israel's right wing government have kicked off with the Mooslims in the immediate run up to an election.

It was awfully strange when Netanyahu decided to make more noise about Iran when his approval rating was dropping.

Not that I'm saying a man who has spent his entire political career campaigning on security would do such a thing. Although it would still be less "tin-foil hat" than the stuff this Itwaznaeme/IBM rocket has posted.

Edit:

For the record, I obviously have an issue with Israel's actions. I also have an issue with the actions of Hamas. One side isn't "better" than the other.

Edited November 19, 2012 by yoda

[Lichtieforlife]

For the record, I obviously have an issue with Israel's actions. I also have an issue with the actions of Hamas. One side isn't "better" than the other.

I disagree.

[Booker-T]

You don't debate full stop. Probably wise, given that you have no idea what you are talking about.

really?

[Wee Bully]

really?

Yup

[Reynard]

It is virtually impossible to respond to the pro-Zionist right wing rhetoric on here as it starts from such a false premis and continues to repeat the half truths that flood the MSM every day.

Here's a few random points however:

The only moral 'legitimacy' for Israel is the view that it is a Jewish homeland by dint of religious prophecy.

The legal 'legitimacy' for Israel is that a an organisation ashamed of the treatment of Jews during the holocaust looked for a way to appease Jewish and other demands by a land grab without any concerns about others in the vicinity of where the land was being grabbed.

The talk of not negotiating with terrorists ignores the fact that many of those involved in the founding and expansion of Israel were terrorists. Slightly off-topic the first black president of South Africa was also a 'terrorist'.

All Palestinians are portrayed as militants and supporters of Hammas; any time the Israeli extremists are exposed they are explained away as insignificant minorities; even when they are government ministers.

Atrocities against Palestinians happened on a regular basis prior to them supporting Hammas; as others have many ordinary Palestinians were driven to support Hammas as a result of no progress being made on issues such as their economic needs and growth in illegal Jewish settlements.

The powerful pro Zionist lobby in the US has ensured that no anti Israeli motions are carried in the UN even when they flaunt the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. Hardly an incentive for Iran to pay it any heed.

The Israeli government is the aggressors here and are as extreme as Hammas. There are many ordinary Israelis who oppose the worst excesses of their successive governments but sadly they are in the minority. Only when the international community start treating he Israeli government in the same way they did the Apartheid one will anything be done and I'm not sure if that day will ever come.

Maybe it will end with the apocalyptical end that the Christian and Zionist nutters are hoping for. If it does it will be a self- fulfilling prophecy not a biblical one.

This is more drivel

I put up the Hamas Charter a few days ago so that people who are ignorant of what they stand for could ACTUALLY see what they say about things. Their aims are one pan arab Islamic state in the area. They recognise that there are no Jordanians Syrians,Palestinians etc etc. Just arabs. And they want to annhilate the Jews and indeed, Christians. Hamas also makes it quite plain what they think of interfering infidels like you and me. They hate our guts. So whilst I can share your frustration that innocent folk on both sides are going to die here. You just simply have to accept that religion plays its part in an area of the world where religion is a big deal. But you should also know that Israel is a secular society and is NOT driven by religious fundamentalism. Gaza is, the west bank is, and you support them against secular Israel. Indeed,Hasidic Jews do not recognise the current state of Israel as a contunuation of the old state of Israel as it was until the Roman Empire conquered it as they see it as being secular and not a religious state as they would want.

So pick your side, hate the Israelis all you like, but there will never be peace in the area because, there is no intention of these folk ever accepting a two state solution like you and I would probably think would be a good thing. The Israelis would probably accept this as they did in 1948, but the subsequent immediate invasion by pan Arab forces hell bent on strangling at birth put paid to that. And its worth noting that Jordan pinched a fair chunk of what was to be Palestine and sat on it for long enough without handing it back.

So while I can understand that you have bought the drivel about "who started it" I really don't see any great excuse for a so called leftie liberal who couldnt broadly support a secular non religios democracy like Israel and who COULD support fundamental Islam and all the oppression of freedom it would bring for the minorities that the left claim to support so much. It has always been a stance that puzzled me greatly. I do get the issue about who chucked the first bomb across and at what point you want to draw the timeline from. And how Jews are terrible people who control the world, and how the left thoroughly hate the USA because in the big race to show which system worked best after WW2, the USA shat all over the commie bloc and did its best to prevent the vile doctrine of Marx from infesting more countries round the world.

But anyway, I'm sure if Israel really wanted to pile in and f**k up Gaza really bad, then it will do so. I dont think it really does want to do this, I think it would happily live in peace with it, like it now does with Syria, Jordan, Egypt and the various other countries it has had scuffles with and now no longer fights with. When the Hamas rockets stop, and promise to stop. This will end. The Israelis already fucked off out of the Gaza strip and left it entirely to the arabs on the promise of peace which has never come.

They should definitely stop building settlements in the occupied areas all the same. Thats wankerdom.

[H_B]

The 1967 war, i.e. another mass land grab, lands never relinquished.

So, the Yom Kippur war was caused by Israeli land grabs was it....?

[xbl]

Actually, why Is it that all the Lunatic Zionist fans on here are both Unionists and right wingers? Its a weird Sort of Overlap...

[Reynard]

Israel has no interest in peace with her neighbours and never has. The reason for that is that peace is strategic death for the 'Jewish state'.

The Balfour Declaration coerced out of the black pit of WWI

The Nabka, the source of the 'middle east problem', a brutal act of ethnic cleansing committed in shadow of WWII

The 1967 war, i.e. another mass land grab, lands never relinquished.

Israel needs to be in a state of perpetual war because only then can it have 'opportunities' to acquire more physical territory in particular the Litani River in Lebanon is now highly coveted.

Right now the 'demographic problem' means the Palestinian Arabs would soon out-breed them so they desperately need a (final) solution (the irony is appalling of course). Specifically the desperately need an excuse to force out the hordes of ethnically cleansed Arabs and their descendants now couped up in Gaza and other enclaves.

Israel has totally destroyed any chance of a two state solution and yet she is completely unable to live with the consequences of a one state solution, as it would be the end of the 'Jewish State'. They have painted themselves into a corner of epic proportions.

So look forward to more endless war there. With some major event that enables Israel to force out the Gaza population (probably into Egypt) using 'security' and 'terrorism' as the excuse..

Israel is a doomed state, not because of the Arabs but because of the Israelis themselves, they are now in a death spiral, falling ever further into racial / religious supremacist extremism.

Bad things are going to happen and the nutters in charge of Israel are capable of going for the 'Sampson Option' when the end approaches. We should all be very worried at events over there.

Yeah? Why didn't they just hang on to Sinai and Gaza then? Why didn't they simply take Cairo while they were routing the Egyptian army? They traded Sinai for a peace deal. They traded Gaza for what they thought was a peace deal. The Egyptian one has held for a number of years, the Gaza one was fucked within weeks by their Jihadist Islamic terrorist outfits.

I do agre with your final paragraph. There simply will never be a holding peace in the area, and eventually Israel will be obliterated by its enemies. But until then, this shitfest will continue.

Where I disagree is that Israel has any designs on Gaza itself. I really don't think it does at all, and would prefer it to be a peaceful neighbour like it now has with Jordan and Egypt (for the time being anyway). Israel does still supply electricity and water into Gaza so maybe the Gaza arabs should get on with sorting their infrastructure instead of relying on their warmongering enemy for infrastructure support.

[H_B]

Which part of "The Arab world don't and never have wanted a 2 state solution" do people not get.....?

[Pink Freud]

Actually, why Is it that all the Lunatic Zionist fans on here are both Unionists and right wingers? Its a weird Sort of Overlap...

Fans? People pointing out that Hammas want Israel destroyed are somehow fans?

OK.

[H_B]

Fans? People pointing out that Hammas want Israel destroyed are somehow fans?

OK.

Not only Hamas of course.

Ahmedinejad is also fond of similar rhetoric, when he needs to keep the troops at home on side.

Of course the buckled Galloway fruitcakes never seem to have a problem with that.

[Pinigol]

I agree with Reynard. Again, Hamas hide behind their social activities and their crown as defender of the downtrodden, when in reality they only further the suffering of the people they claim to support.

If they wanted to help the people of Gaza, they'd stop importing vast quantities of missiles and mortars for attacking civilians and use the money from their financial backers to reconstruct the territory. Rebuild in collaboration with the UN, instead of leaning on them to make the provisions for the people that are their responsibility.

How many mouths could be fed with the money that paid for one of those Iranian design rockets they so righteously fired at Tel Aviv?

[welshbairn]

Which part of "The Arab World Israel don't and never have wanted a 2 state solution" do people not get.....?

Equally valid question. Palestinians don't want to live in Bantustans between illegal Israeli settlements and military checkpoints, and Israel wants total domination over the biblical Judaea and Samaria.

Edited November 19, 2012 by welshbairn

[Silvio Tattiescone]

Indeed. Palestinian totalitarians are fighting a Jewish/Secular democracy.

One side tortures and imprisons gay people - the other has gay pride marches.

One side has Sharia law - the other side is more secular than Ireland

One side murders political opponents by throwing them off roofs - the other has peaceful democratic elections.

One side beats up women in the street for dressing immodestly - the other side has topless beaches.

What side has values worth supporting?

[welshbairn]

Indeed. Palestinian totalitarians are fighting a Jewish/Secular democracy.

One side tortures and imprisons gay people - the other has gay pride marches.

One side has Sharia law - the other side is more secular than Ireland

One side murders political opponents by throwing them off roofs - the other has peaceful democratic elections.

One side beats up women in the street for dressing immodestly - the other side has topless beaches.

What side has values worth supporting?

I'm not sure if we should allocate justice to the side we would most like to visit for a holiday. Clearly we're going to share more cultural values with a European colony implanted in the Middle East than with it's neighbours. Doesn't make them right though.

[xbl]

Fans? People pointing out that Hammas want Israel destroyed are somehow fans?

OK.

If you're talking about Reynard, this is a man who has previously praised Mossad's actions to the heavens and encouraged them. See this thread for details. Or are you going to claim that he is "neutral" now?

Btw, people always turn to more extreme organisations in times of suffering. Logically, if Israel wanted Hamas stopped, they'd starve them of support by improving conditions, showing that they're not all bad, and providing some secret funding to help moderate parties rise. Oh, and perhaps stop with the settlements. But all they are doing is increasing support for Hamas all the time. That is all this weeks "back to the middle ages" (no condemnation on this thread I see from the usual suspects) actions are going to do is increase support for Hamas and other extreme movements. It is short sighted idiocy.

[xbl]

Indeed. Palestinian totalitarians are fighting a Jewish/Secular democracy.

One side tortures and imprisons gay people - the other has gay pride marches.

One side has Sharia law - the other side is more secular than Ireland

One side murders political opponents by throwing them off roofs - the other has peaceful democratic elections.

One side beats up women in the street for dressing immodestly - the other side has topless beaches.

What side has values worth supporting?

Btw, Palestine had peaceful democratic elections. In response to those peaceful democratic elections, the Israelis "put the palestinians on a diet" (to quote the Israeli government) as a punishment for them peacefully and democratically voting for the wrong people. How did that work for Israel?

[H_B]

I'm not sure if we should allocate justice to the side we would most like to visit for a holiday. Clearly we're going to share more cultural values with a European colony implanted in the Middle East than with it's neighbours. Doesn't make them right though.

Actually, it very much does make those cultural values "right".

Sadly for the hand-wringing apologists for scumbaggery there actually are cultural rights and wrongs.

For example imprisoning gay people and stoning adulterous women isn't like driving on a different side of the road and banning jaywalking.

[welshbairn]

If you're talking about Reynard, this is a man who has previously praised Mossad's actions to the heavens and encouraged them. See this thread for details. Or are you going to claim that he is "neutral" now?

Btw, people always turn to more extreme organisations in times of suffering. Logically, if Israel wanted Hamas stopped, they'd starve them of support by improving conditions, showing that they're not all bad, and providing some secret funding to help moderate parties rise. Oh, and perhaps stop with the settlements. But all they are doing is increasing support for Hamas all the time. That is all this weeks "back to the middle ages" (no condemnation on this thread I see from the usual suspects) actions are going to do is increase support for Hamas and other extreme movements. It is short sighted idiocy.

Israel originally supported Hamas as they emerged in the Eighties in order to undermine the PLO and Arafat. By undermining or assassinating any leader with the backing and intelligence to be worth negotiating with, they can continue to drivel on about wanting peace and a 2 state solution while lamenting the fact there's nobody to talk to, and continue expanding their settlements.