Israel And The Palestinians (now with added Iran)

[welshbairn]

Actually, it very much does make those cultural values "right".

Sadly for the hand-wringing apologists for scumbaggery there actually are cultural rights and wrongs.

For example imprisoning gay people and stoning adulterous women isn't like driving on a different side of the road and banning jaywalking.

Equally, allowing topless beaches does not give you the right to bulldoze your neighbour's houses and build your own on top.

Edited November 19, 2012 by welshbairn

[Reynard]

Which part of "The Arab world don't and never have wanted a 2 state solution" do people not get.....?

This is the crux of the problem with the position of the folk that support the Palestinian cause. I have zero idea of what the ordinary punterdom would be happy with because we dont get to hear much about that. But the guys who control the politics of the arabs certainly have no wish to recognise Israel and they want a pan arab nation in the area without Israel or Jews in it. A number of the folk that support the cause have come out and said they do recognise the right of Israel to exist as a state, the borders issue is an entirely different part of the debate BTW, whch then leads us to the problem that the Palestinian thing is simply a strategical red herring. It is a propaganda tool for jihadist Islamists. You only need to go back to the documents and arguments during the initial carve up of the Ottoman Empire to understand that the arabs wanted an huge Arab Islamic state, and they still do. There will of course be the ferrets in a sack fighting to see who takes ultimate control of that pan Arab nation state, but thats an after the event job. The issue is that no matter what Israel does, or how much land it hands over, it won't be good enough, there will never be peace until Israel is gone.

I'd actually like to know how many of the folk that support the Palestinian cause would recognise the state of Israel to exist at all and if so how they can then be so blind as to not recognise what the ultimate end game is here. And here'e a hint, it's certainly NOT a Palestinian homeland. They don't give a flying f**k about Palestine, or the poor sods who have been labelled Palestinians since 1964.

The fact is that innocent folk that simply just want to look after their families will continue to die at the hands of religious and political idiots in that area of the world until such time as Israel is routed and the Jews are annihilated. The fact that Israel has been tooled up massively is preventing this from happening of course, and the fact the USA and its allies help it out does stick in the craw of lefties in the main, which is why a lot of them seem to be stuck in a bit of a silly posture over the issue. I agree that I do not want to see innocent folk dying there on either side and I DO want a two state solution. But I KNOW a two state solution won't work unfortunately. The end game here isn't a state called Palestine and anyone that truly belives that is not in full receipt of the facts. The poor sods in Gaza at the moment are the ultimate pawns in a pretty horrible game. They are entirely expendible to the likes of Hamas, which is shocking really. And Israel, as they know, will ALWAYS retaliate using more force than they have available. So the whole situation will rinse and repeat time and again. The state of Israel is here now and it isn't going to be unravelled without massive amounts of bloodshed. I think a few of the arab states have had the bloodied nose down throgh the years off Israel and have reluctantly agreed to haud back for the time being, but any sign of weakness or softening of the Israeli militay position and they will be back over the Israeli border like rats up a drainpipe. That's the way it is out there. And Israel do need to stop building the settlements as it puts them in a bad position, that is a massive mistake on their part and they should stop this.

[Reynard]

Equally, allowing topless beaches does not give you the right to bulldoze your neighbour's houses and build your own on top.

Correct. It doesn't and it's shameful. The arabs inside Israel are treated well all the same and seem to enjoy living there. That would be a far better signal to send out to the rest of the world than building in the occupied territories.

[Reynard]

Btw, Palestine had peaceful democratic elections. In response to those peaceful democratic elections, the Israelis "put the palestinians on a diet" (to quote the Israeli government) as a punishment for them peacefully and democratically voting for the wrong people. How did that work for Israel?

They elected a group of people who's charter states that it wants Israel and the Jews to be annhilated. Do you support that charter?

[H_B]

Equally, allowing topless beaches does not give you the right to bulldoze your neighbour's houses and build your own on top.

It doesn't. I'm absolutely not defending Israel's conduct over the past 40 years - there are faults on both sides.

I think that's the point though, and it's a similar one to Libya and Syria too. It would be nice to be a Harry Potter v Voldemort fight, but it's more like choosing between a thief and a murderer - ideally you wouldn't back either, but given the choice....

.

[xbl]

They elected a group of people who's charter states that it wants Israel and the Jews to be annhilated. Do you support that charter?

No. As you well know, I've always been in favour of a two state solution, and I stay away from Jew Bashing. But as you know, there is a difference between what people say from the fringes, and what people say when they are in a position of responsibility, as shown by pretty much any government ever. Just look at how the position of Fatah shifted over time. If Hamas had been given a few years in power, then they would have lost support or watered themselves down. Instead, Israel helped to grow their support and make them more extreme. Idiocy.

[Dunning1874]

I think a point that's pertinent - and I acknowledge that some who criticise Israel are unaware just how abhorrent Hamas are - is that some people seem to equate criticism of Israel with support for Hamas. This isn't the case. I completely condemn their fundamentalism, anti-semitism, total disregard for the rights of minorities and attacks on innocent people. That doesn't mean I accept that Israel has a right to bomb Gaza back to the middle ages, bulldoze homes, restrict freedom of movement, shoot children for throwing stones, build illegal settlements in the West Bank and essentially impose apartheid on everyone in both Gaza and the West Bank. That's what the international community accept, that's what our government actively support and opposition to this does not mean support for Hamas.

Calling on Israel to stop this does not mean wanting their civilians to be left open to rocket attacks, it's the belief that successive Israeli governments have exacerbated the situation - arguably deliberately - and they have the power to move towards peace by ceasing to perpetrate human rights abuses and impose apartheid on millions of people but have have shown no real intention of doing this. Their actions demonstrate no desire for peace and they'll rightly be criticsed until they do.

Edit: This wasn't meant to be aimed at anyone specifically on here, just about the topic in general.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Dunning1874

[Wee Bully]

The eight-year-old girl called a whore by Israel's Jewish religious hardliners

Ultra-Orthodox spitting attacks on Old City clergymen becoming daily

What exactly is your point? The authorities are quoted as clamping down on this unacceptable behaviour. Are you suggesting the Israeli authorities should just let them get on with this behaviour with impunity?

[H_B]

What exactly is your point? The authorities are quoted as clamping down on this unacceptable behaviour. Are you suggesting the Israeli authorities should just let them get on with this behaviour with impunity?

It's the old whataboutery trick often used to pointscore against the West.

"We've got no right to criticise Pol Pot because drones have killed people in Afghanistan" etc etc.

[Wee Bully]

The first great paradox is that Israel accuses all others of bigotry against it, everyone who criticizes Israel is an anti-semite it seems whilst at the same time the Israelis are now widely recognized as "The New Afrikaners , operating an apartheid state and engaging in brutal ethnic cleansing and 'policies of depopulation'.

The second great paradox is that Israel aggressively seeks reparations and restitutions form other states for its citizens who were dispossessed during the second world war whilst sitting atop a stolen country and overseeing massive ghettos full of those that you violently dispossessed.

How do these incredible paradoxes exist?

The answer is a propaganda machine that is unrivaled on this earth.

And understand this, an anti-semite is not typically someone who dislikes Jews, an anti-semite is someone who the Jews don't like.

How long can they sustain this incredible hypocrisy I wonder.

Are you SS-18?

[Mr Rational]

Interesting article in Haaretz about Scotland, it's attitude towards Jews, Israel and anti-semtisism. I can't link it as I'm on the phone, but David Leask has it up on twitter.

A diplomat described it as going into 'enemy territory' which I find rather sad.

[Silvio Tattiescone]

Interesting article in Haaretz about Scotland, it's attitude towards Jews, Israel and anti-semtisism. I can't link it as I'm on the phone, but David Leask has it up on twitter.

A diplomat described it as going into 'enemy territory' which I find rather sad.

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/does-scotland-manage-to-be-anti-israel-without-being-anti-semitic.premium-1.473977

[xbl]

Interesting article in Haaretz about Scotland, it's attitude towards Jews, Israel and anti-semtisism. I can't link it as I'm on the phone, but David Leask has it up on twitter.

A diplomat described it as going into 'enemy territory' which I find rather sad.

This one:

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/does-scotland-manage-to-be-anti-israel-without-being-anti-semitic.premium-1.473977

The main crux of the article seems to be that there is very, very little anti-semitism, but that a lot of people dislike actions of Israel the state, rather than because they are Jewish, and so for some, the line is blurred.

[Mr Rational]

Cheers!

[Sweet Pete]

There are no winners in this clusterfuck. Hamas get more support as Palestinians and Arabs are radicalised by the actions of the IDF and Israel (meaning that they will only become more hardline and extreme, remember how the Taliban weren't always the bad guys?) and the Israeli's get more behind their government and military with every rocket that lands in an Jewish family's garden.

There are only losers and sadly most of those losers will be ordinary folk from both sides who simply want to get on with their lives but can't because of the actions of others.

I can't understand the support for either side from countries outwith the Middle East. I just cannot bring myself to believe that either one is right or, at least less wrong than the other.

I do think though that it's important for international aid agencies and the like to be involved in Gaza and the West Bank. There are many arguments to be had from various angles, but starving kids and families with no medical supplies and unsanitary conditions don't care about that and should rightly be prioritised over the squabbling of the politicians, the extremists and the military.

[Reynard]

No. As you well know, I've always been in favour of a two state solution, and I stay away from Jew Bashing. But as you know, there is a difference between what people say from the fringes, and what people say when they are in a position of responsibility, as shown by pretty much any government ever. Just look at how the position of Fatah shifted over time. If Hamas had been given a few years in power, then they would have lost support or watered themselves down. Instead, Israel helped to grow their support and make them more extreme. Idiocy.

I wouldn't say they have become "more extreme" seeing as their stated aim in their charter is to eradicate all traces of Israel and Judaism from the area. They are jihadists who want a single arab Islamic nation in the area. I also want to see a two state solution, most normal folk do, but Hamas don't want that and will simply carry on firing rockets into Israel to provoke the response they are getting now. It certainly DOES play into their hands and the body count also plays into their hands and doesn't actually bother them at all. Israel could of course simply ignore the rockets coming over or ignore the suicide bombings which used to be a daily occurrance, but they do have a responsibility to their own citizens, Jew and Arab alike to protect them. And Hamas know this and will not stop. There will be a ceasefire for a period of time and then it will start again, or at least die back a bit to levels Israel might just accept. But ultimately it will just carry on as before, there willl be periods of escalation, Israel WILL continue to attempt to cut off the snakes head with targetted assassinations and the whole thing will continue.

Do you honestly believe that even if we went back to the initial 1948 borders for instance, that hostilities will cease? I don't, because I know that there is a pretty large element of these arabs who are jihadist Islamists and they will never stop until they turn the area into what they want to see. They will never accept an Israeli state as was proven in 1948 when they attempted to wipe it out on day one of it's formation. That mindset will never die and there will never be peace in this area.

As long as Israel remains and as long as their are Jews in percieved Islamic lands then this will carry on in some form or other. Israels actions do indeed make things worse at times, but even if they did nothing at all they will still be a target. Its either a sitting duck target or a moving one as now, but they will remain a target nonetheless.

[Granny Danger]

The idea that support for Palestine equates to support for Islam and the values of Islam is laughable and is typical of how the pro-Zionists simplify a complicated arguement. I believe all countries whose policies are heavily influenced by religious thinking have serious problems, and I think zealotry is more common in countries where Islam plays a large part in the culture and thinking.

None of that excuses the treatment of Palestinians by Israel. Countries in western Europe took centuries to throw off the worst excesses of religious influence, in the US it can be argued that that influence is still very powerful. I would like to think that over the years there will be greater liberalisation of people brought up in the Islam tradition but that is not going to happen soon. However, as other have said, the ongoing persecution of Palestinians will do nothing to liberalise young Muslims, it will simply make them more hardline.

Nothing will be resolved in the Middle East whilst Israel is continually portrayed as the good guys and are protected and supported by succesive US presidents and governments. European countries have a role to play in taking a more objective stance but, as yet, there are few European leaders who are willing to put their heads above the parapet.

[Reynard]

There are no winners in this clusterfuck. Hamas get more support as Palestinians and Arabs are radicalised by the actions of the IDF and Israel (meaning that they will only become more hardline and extreme, remember how the Taliban weren't always the bad guys?) and the Israeli's get more behind their government and military with every rocket that lands in an Jewish family's garden.

There are only losers and sadly most of those losers will be ordinary folk from both sides who simply want to get on with their lives but can't because of the actions of others.

I can't understand the support for either side from countries outwith the Middle East. I just cannot bring myself to believe that either one is right or, at least less wrong than the other.

I do think though that it's important for international aid agencies and the like to be involved in Gaza and the West Bank. There are many arguments to be had from various angles, but starving kids and families with no medical supplies and unsanitary conditions don't care about that and should rightly be prioritised over the squabbling of the politicians, the extremists and the military.

That's the sad bit about it all. Speak to either side one to one and you'll probably find agreement that they just want to get on with life, just like anywhere else in the world, people just want to look after their family, make a life and do their thing in peace. The problem is always above them.

[Granny Danger]

That's the sad bit about it all. Speak to either side one to one and you'll probably find agreement that they just want to get on with life, just like anywhere else in the world, people just want to look after their family, make a life, do their thing in peace and post shite on the internet. The problem is always above them. All politicians are c***s.

You're slipping.

[Reynard]

The idea that support for Palestine equates to support for Islam and the values of Islam is laughable and is typical of how the pro-Zionists simplify a complicated arguement. I believe all countries whose policies are heavily influenced by religious thinking have serious problems, and I think zealotry is more common in countries where Islam plays a large part in the culture and thinking.

None of that excuses the treatment of Palestinians by Israel. Countries in western Europe took centuries to throw off the worst excesses of religious influence, in the US it can be argued that that influence is still very powerful. I would like to think that over the years there will be greater liberalisation of people brought up in the Islam tradition but that is not going to happen soon. However, as other have said, the ongoing persecution of Palestinians will do nothing to liberalise young Muslims, it will simply make them more hardline.

Nothing will be resolved in the Middle East whilst Israel is continually portrayed as the good guys and are protected and supported by succesive US presidents and governments. European countries have a role to play in taking a more objective stance but, as yet, there are few European leaders who are willing to put their heads above the parapet.

Islam is powerful in a variety of areas in the world and it is growing in much the same way that Christianity did in the middle ages and onward. The actions of the jihadists running the likes of the Gaza Strip will make sure there is always fresh meat for the cause as that is exactly what they want. As I said already, there will never be peace. The persecution of Palestinians is simply a red herring. They'd have had their Palestinian state back in 1948 if they actually wanted it. They didn't want it. They've been offered terms since then and rejected those too. The suffering of the ordinary arab punters stuck in the middle is a result of their religious leaders/politicians playing games with them. A Palestinian state is not the end game here, not by a long shot. You surely need to understand this? They are using these poor buggers as pawns in a long long game and it's a fucking shame for them. The religious thing is not going to go away, it's going to get much much worse. Its not even about portraying Israel as good guys, as it wouldnt matter if they were complete c***s or were fabulous neighbours, the jihadists want rid of them and they want a united Islamic arab nation. Once they have that they will simply kill one another as they struggle for power in a sectarian way. But they will simply focus on ridding themselves of the Jews in the meantime.