Israel And The Palestinians (now with added Iran)

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

6 minutes ago, Donathan said:

Nor do I, but then again I don’t belong to a religious group which has been persecuted against throughout history and which a major world leader tried to (and nearly successfully) exterminate them less than 100 years ago. So perhaps the Jewish community should be cut some slack for wanting somewhere to call home. 

How much pain and suffering do you have to go through before you are allowed to do a bit of counter genocide?

Would native tribes in the Americas or Australiasia be justified in wiping out a few million people of European descent?

[Granny Danger]

I am not in favour of a nation state based on a religious grouping (and yes it will be claimed that Jews are an ethnic group as well as a religious group that that claim changes as and when it suits the narrative) more so one that could only be created by displacing other people who had occupied said land for centuries.

If P&B was on the go in the 1940s I’d be arguing against the creation of Israel, but it’s not the 1940s and the last 75 years cannot be ignored and displacing Israelis would now be as morally repugnant as the displacement of those who made way for Jews was back then.  However there is a valid argument to redraw Israel’s existing boundaries as part of a two state solution.

Since we cannot turn back the clock we can at least acknowledge some issues such as the irony of a group of very persecuted and oppressed people becoming persecutors and oppressors.  The irony of a group of people who are still the target of hard right-wing fanatics having hard right-wing fanatics as government ministers.  And the irony of a group of people who in the past have been the subject of state subjugation using the power of their state to subjugate others.

Whilst there is focus on groups such as Hamas who want to obliterate Israel, there seems far less focus on members of the Knesset, including at least one government minister, who advocate for removal of Palestinians.  And whilst many are decrying the ‘terrorists’ that are carrying out campaigns against Israelis we shouldn’t forget that this term was used to describe Zionist organisations whose leadership included at least one future Israeli Prime Minister.

 

[itzdrk]

38 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

Maybe try going further than a fucking dictionary if you're seeking to understand any political ideology

They are definitely the kinda person that has Nazis marked as socialists. 

[Donathan]

3 minutes ago, itzdrk said:

They are definitely the kinda person that has Nazis marked as socialists. 

There are many, many organisations who only pretend to be “Socialists”. Some of the Eastern European regimes in the second half of the 20th century would have Karl Marx turning in his grave. 

[Donathan]

6 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

I am not in favour of a nation state based on a religious grouping (and yes it will be claimed that Jews are an ethnic group as well as a religious group that that claim changes as and when it suits the narrative) more so one that could only be created by displacing other people who had occupied said land for centuries.

If P&B was on the go in the 1940s I’d be arguing against the creation of Israel, but it’s not the 1940s and the last 75 years cannot be ignored and displacing Israelis would now be as morally repugnant as the displacement of those who made way for Jews was back then.  However there is a valid argument to redraw Israel’s existing boundaries as part of a two state solution.

Since we cannot turn back the clock we can at least acknowledge some issues such as the irony of a group of very persecuted and oppressed people becoming persecutors and oppressors.  The irony of a group of people who are still the target of hard right-wing fanatics having hard right-wing fanatics as government ministers.  And the irony of a group of people who in the past have been the subject of state subjugation using the power of their state to subjugate others.

Whilst there is focus on groups such as Hamas who want to obliterate Israel, there seems far less focus on members of the Knesset, including at least one government minister, who advocate for removal of Palestinians.  And whilst many are decrying the ‘terrorists’ that are carrying out campaigns against Israelis we shouldn’t forget that this term was used to describe Zionist organisations whose leadership included at least one future Israeli Prime Minister.

 

Good post! 

[Trogdor]

I almost greenied GD. I need to lie down.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

7 hours ago, Donathan said:

US media saying the rocket that hit the hospital was a Palestinian one. Not clear whether it was a false flag or an accidental friendly fire. 

Was it beside an article on WMD’s in Iraq? 

6 hours ago, Donathan said:

Any remotely pro-Israel comment in this thread is downvoted to oblivion. 

Just like Israel is complicit in genocide in blasting Gaza to oblivion? I support Israel’s right to exist, which is actually more than some orthodox jewish people do. I support their right to defend themselves. But i do not support their right to obliterate an entire nation because of the actions of a small group within. 

[TxRover]

6 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Their rockets couldn't blow the skin off a rice pudding until that happened.

Well, part of that is misleading reporting about what happened confusing people.

Here’s a pretty comprehensive summary of what we know:

-Israel released a drone video that is suggestive of it not being an Israeli muntion.

-The Palestinians released a video that confirmed the Israeli video because of the positions of the vehicles.

-The “attack” hit a parking lot, it did not even come close to destroying a hospital, and, in fact, the clay tiles on the roof of the hospital building next to the parking lot were undisturbed.

-The only crater in the parking lot is very small, but there is massive burn damage with a pattern to it.

-Israel is using JDAM’s, which would cause a much larger crater.

-Hamas is using R160 rockets, which would be consistent with the small crater and the burn pattern is like that of excess fuel from a wayward rocket.

-There is a third group in the area, with R160’s, and even less training…and perhaps more likely to make a mistake.

-Video from the time of the strike has an audio signature that matches a rocket rather than a bomb.

 

There are a few realities here…Israel could certainly have performed a false flag attack…Hamas, or a third party, could have screwed up a missile launch…Israel could have tried an early intercept that fell into Gaza…everyone is trying to spin it to their advantage…it’s definitely on the two parties goading this on, the far right Israeli government and Hamas. We will probably know soon enough, but a large percentage of people have already made up their minds anyway.

[Freedom Farter]

https://www.channel4.com/news/who-was-behind-the-gaza-hospital-blast-visual-investigation

Short Channel 4 video assessing the claims around the Gaza hospital blast.

[GHF-23]

If there's one silver lining in recent events it's confirmed my belief that all OSINT guys should be burned with hot irons and have their circle-drawing hands mutilated like the French used to do to longbowmen

[coprolite]

12 hours ago, orfc said:

And is similar criticism applied to any other country on here? Where are the similar 100+ page threads about the Saudis actions in Yemen, the Iranians/Turks actions against the Kurds, etc etc?

One major difference is that (the modern state of) Israel is a Western colonial project that the UK created with the support of the UN. That has historically created an interest in the conflict in the UK. It also creates quite strong views in other countries. 

Another difference is that the territories affected and some of the claims to them are culturally significant to all of Christendom. Jerusalem is just more box office than Aden. 

The conflict itself has broader and more significant proxy interests than the others you mention. The Turkish Kurds aren't backed by a wanabe nuclear power against the US.  

There are plenty of reasons why the interest in this conflict us wider and more intense than in regional skirmishes. None of which are anti semitic. 

I don't think that the criticism of Israel has been at all different in nature than, for example, the criticism of Azerbaijan. It's just that fewer people are familiar with the Ngorno Karabakh situation (i'm certainly not) so there's less of it. 

In any case, the IHRA definition might be widely used but it's not definitive. Personally i think it goes too far in proscribing criticism of the Israeli state. You can't say it's racist or compare them to Nazis. It's not obvious (to me anyway) why accusing an apartheid state of racism is prejudicial against Jewish people. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by coprolite

[sophia]

1 hour ago, GHF-23 said:

If there's one silver lining in recent events it's confirmed my belief that all OSINT guys should be burned with hot irons and have their circle-drawing hands mutilated like the French used to do to longbowmen

Its all turning out to be not a little bit inconvenient but at least it allowed the usual cohort their day of rage on here

[Sergeant Wilson]

56 minutes ago, coprolite said:

 

I don't think that the criticism of Israel has been at all different in nature than, for example, the criticism of Azerbaijan. It's just that fewer people are familiar with the Ngorno Karabakh situation (i'm certainly not) so there's less of it. 

 

How dare you! we've got experts all over this site, that could tell you where the nearest public toilet is in Ngorno Karabakh and everywhere else. Only the other day the Ukranian army were being guided to high ground, avoiding the marshes etc in some oblast or other. They even get told which rockets to fire.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

The devil is in the detail.

Joe Biden's meeting with Netanyahu has prised open the crossing at the Egyptian border with Gaza to permit aid lorries to get through.  So far so good until we learn that twenty, yes twenty, lorries will be initially permitted access, and even then the road surfaces are an issue due to bombing earlier this week.

I'd reckon that on a normal day the county of Argyll, with a fraction of the population of Gaza, will receive twenty such deliveries.

[orfc]

1 hour ago, coprolite said:

One major difference is that (the modern state of) Israel is a Western colonial project that the UK created with the support of the UN. That has historically created an interest in the conflict in the UK. It also creates quite strong views in other countries. 

Another difference is that the territories affected and some of the claims to them are culturally significant to all of Christendom. Jerusalem is just more box office than Aden. 

The conflict itself has broader and more significant proxy interests than the others you mention. The Turkish Kurds aren't backed by a wanabe nuclear power against the US.  

There are plenty of reasons why the interest in this conflict us wider and more intense than in regional skirmishes. None of which are anti semitic. 

I don't think that the criticism of Israel has been at all different in nature than, for example, the criticism of Azerbaijan. It's just that fewer people are familiar with the Ngorno Karabakh situation (i'm certainly not) so there's less of it. 

In any case, the IHRA definition might be widely used but it's not definitive. Personally i think it goes too far in proscribing criticism of the Israeli state. You can't say it's racist or compare them to Nazis. It's not obvious (to me anyway) why accusing an apartheid state of racism is prejudicial against Jewish people. 

It's a well written post that explains the quantity of debate but not the quality or bias.

When news of this hospital carnage broke there were immediately a dozen posts who'd immediately swallowed the Hamas version of events - "Israel are b*****ds" etc

Not one went "hang on, let's see what actually happened"

Then when it turned out there were more than a few bits of evidence pointing to it being a Hamas/ally fuckup there were a similar number of posts saying "yeh well we just don't take what people say at face value do we lads, it's obviously deflecting bollox"... (and that caused a massive cry throughout the hypocrisy multiverse which my psychic senses are attuned to)

It's obvious there's a massive bias for one side on this forum, prob roughly in total the same number that downvoted my completely correct post on the matter, and an amazing overlap with the "everyone's a Tory except me" subgroup too. Let's see if we can make it -30 lads

 

[101]

23 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

The devil is in the detail.

Joe Biden's meeting with Netanyahu has prised open the crossing at the Egyptian border with Gaza to permit aid lorries to get through.  So far so good until we learn that twenty, yes twenty, lorries will be initially permitted access, and even then the road surfaces are an issue due to bombing earlier this week.

I'd reckon that on a normal day the county of Argyll, with a fraction of the population of Gaza, will receive twenty such deliveries.

And they don't have to negotiate a road that has been bombed specifically to disrupt supply chains. 

I mean Argyll and Bute council are good at potholes but I suspect even they can't match the roads in Gaza.

[Cosmic Joe]

3 minutes ago, orfc said:

 

It's obvious there's a massive bias for one side on this forum, prob roughly in total the same number that downvoted my completely correct post on the matter, and an amazing overlap with the "everyone's a Tory except me" subgroup too. Let's see if we can make it -30 lads

 

Don't you mean opinion? 

[The Moonster]

2 minutes ago, orfc said:

It's a well written post that explains the quantity of debate but not the quality or bias.

When news of this hospital carnage broke there were immediately a dozen posts who'd immediately swallowed the Hamas version of events - "Israel are b*****ds" etc

Not one went "hang on, let's see what actually happened"

Then when it turned out there were more than a few bits of evidence pointing to it being a Hamas/ally fuckup there were a similar number of posts saying "yeh well we just don't take what people say at face value do we lads, it's obviously deflecting bollox"... (and that caused a massive cry throughout the hypocrisy multiverse which my psychic senses are attuned to)

It's obvious there's a massive bias for one side on this forum, prob roughly in total the same number that downvoted my completely correct post on the matter, and an amazing overlap with the "everyone's a Tory except me" subgroup too. Let's see if we can make it -30 lads

 

Israel are b*****ds. They are bombing the West Bank and other civilians, they are not targeting Hamas. This is not the same as calling Jewish people b*****ds. It's also not an excuse for Hamas to carry out what they did. Ram your anti-semetic pish up your arse along with your "downvote me coz am an edgelord c**t" pish. 

[orfc]

3 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Israel are b*****ds. They are bombing the West Bank and other civilians, they are not targeting Hamas. This is not the same as calling Jewish people b*****ds. It's also not an excuse for Hamas to carry out what they did. Ram your anti-semetic pish up your arse along with your "downvote me coz am an edgelord c**t" pish. 

Slightly less elegant than the post I responded to, but all views are welcome brother

[Sergeant Wilson]

Why is it misplaced bombs always land on hospitals/schools/weddings/funerals?