stanley
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Posts posted by stanley
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I very much remain to be convinced that having a B team in the Lowland League will make any difference to how well our youngsters do in the first team and how many end up making it with us.
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According to Wiki, entry to the Junior Cup:
2017-18: 157
2018-19: 129
2019-20: 132
2021-22: 110
2022-23: 108
It will probably continue to fluctuate now with some members coming and going. There seems to be no sign of any of the new west clubs joining the cup and of east clubs re-joining so far so it will simply rely on the old west junior clubs and the north/midlands sides continuing to enter.
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On 23/02/2023 at 15:54, invergowrie arab said:
St James now are essentially St Joseph's
Not knowing anything about it, in what they are the two clubs connected?
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Really interesting discussion. I don't think mergers will save amateur football but I do think having fewer organisations makes it easier to come to agreements and decisions to help save the game. I don't think disagreements over mergers and teams jumping between leagues is particularly helpful. I also still think it would be really interesting to have the main west leagues all merged. So many leagues lost in the west over the past few years and can't see how that will change in future years so we will get there one way or another.
How you actually address the issue of fewer young people taking part in amateur football is a much bigger question with no easy answer and possibly no solution.
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9 hours ago, Gaf said:
Allot of good and valid points made on this topic. The Caledonian League look to have added a few good additions where the Central League seem to be losing some and I hear it may not be the end of that. People will have a preference of both the Central and The Caledonian but you have to wonder has that merger with Central and SAFL made that league stronger? Also seen a few teams advertise that they have joined the Stirling & District. We could go around in circles all day about whats best for the game and everyone will have their own opinion and rightfully so. I don't think the issue of merging league together saves amateur football. Guys have changed, it's not how it used to be and that's right across society with everything nowadays. Do the clubs do enough to keep their players engaged and loyal to make them want to play football or is it a case of that's my best team and that's that. Work commitments, women, days out with the lads are all more important these days and each to their own, if that's what guys prefer. Saturday morning leagues are a big hit as guys can then go and watch the team they support or spend time with their families. Youngsters all want the under 20 league. Any sniff a player gets to the East or West of Scotland leagues and their off, where years ago not just any player would have got to that level. I notice Redondo refers to the Caley League about adding teams that have done nothing!!! What is it you want them to do? If you haven't done anything does that mean you shouldn't want to progress?? Again we will all have our own opinions and should be entitled to them. If you go back and look at the number of clubs pre covid and look at how the numbers have dropped since then, thats for me where the change has seriously happened. Guys haven't missed it enough. People will always look out for their own interests and rightfully so, thats how a club survives, I don't think anyone should be criticised for that. I also think people will look at how to better things but in reality will never happen.
Which teams are joining the Stirling & District? The majority of clubs from that catchment area are now in the Caledonian League. Can only really see Bannockburn, Steins and Dunipace (joining the Caley) in the Central Scottish from that catchment area. Lots of tweets on the Stirling Twitter page advertising for new clubs.
Edit: Tullibody St. Serf's look like one of the new teams.
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1 minute ago, Gazzah said:
If people think merging all sorts of leagues will save amateur then they are kidding on. It’s slowly dying a death due to numerous reasons and personally im not sure it can be stopped give it 5 years and will be about 200 team’s maximum imo . The 20s league and the east of Scotland/west of Scotland leagues have had a major impact. The generation now playing 35s are the ones who were committed etc. the generation coming through 16-20 is very worrying for grassroots football as it’s well down the list of priorities for them.
I don't think it will save the game but it will end up being the only option for some of the leagues as the numbers continue to decline. If you look at HJ's stats on the rate of decline, you're probably right that it will end up at 200 clubs in a few years time. It's a pity there aren't more young people willing to commit to playing each week. I wonder if the decline will eventually level out or just continue for years.
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34 minutes ago, Redondo said:
Central Caledonian Scottish Amateur football could have had the potential for a Premier, Championship and 3 conferences which would have been interesting. 60 teams, 5 leagues of 12, 3 up 3 down with the winner of each conference getting promotion to the Championship. The 3 conferences getting drawn before each season to give an opportunity for teams to be competitive and a freshness of opponents. The Premier and Championship would be competitve and a couple of added Cup competitions , one solely for Conference teams a league cup for all.
Just a pity some cant see the wood for the trees!!!
That would be been a great way to add some more excitement to the leagues and centralise everything. Too many people will be trying to protect their own league/position (as is always the case in Scottish football). Instead of a simple merger, you've got clubs jumping ship to other leagues. They'll eventually run out of a source for new clubs when leagues like Stirling shut down due to lack of numbers and will merge some years down the line...
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Pretty sure it's only 14 Scottish AFL teams now as Hillington have resigned. Currently looking at 31 teams in the Central Scottish/Scottish and 28 in the Caledonian for next season I believe.
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4 hours ago, HorseyGhirl said:
I know I'm going to regret this but like that bloody cat curiosity is a killer.
@virginton mate just about every post I read you are having a go at someone. Maybe you don't think you are but that's how it comes across.
Talk to us mate nobody wants to argue just talk about this game we love.
It's just trolling.
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Can you justify it being part of tier 6?
1) When relegation finally expands from the Lowland League, having the SoS there will cause issues. There should be three relegation spots from the LL and they should be shared between the WoS and EoS.
2) What possible reason is there to have the WoS and EoS (covering millions of people) alongside the SoS (covering 150k people)? Why should a club like Glasgow Wellington be able to apply and potentially jump straight in at tier 6 when other clubs are starting at tier 9 or 10?
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1 hour ago, rockson said:
If it won't provide a team capable of winning the playoffs then there's no problem with it lying at Tier 6 then, since it's not an effective barrier to anyone else doing so.
It could become a problem as Lowland League relegation opens up in a more fair way. There should be an absolute minimum of two relegation spots from the Lowland League but probably three. To have three as things stand, would involve automatic promotion for WoS, EoS and SoS champions. In reality, it should be WoS and EoS champions up automatically and then a playoff between the runners up for the final promotion spot. That would be fair IMO. Not an issue just now with the usual self-protectionism operating but it could become an issue further down the line.
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You didn't disappoint, thanks.
As with most pyramid systems, the levels get more local the further you go down. It doesn't make much sense to have level 10 as a west-wide region so you would expect some more regionalisation as you go down. The problem at the moment is that we have clubs in level 5 who are smaller than clubs below because of the juniors joining the pyramid late. You would never have a league at level 6 for one small region like Dumfries & Galloway if you were do things logically. Leagues like that would come further down the pyramid. Clearly, the vast majority (if not all) of the SoS couldn't compete with other level 6 clubs.
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2 minutes ago, craigkillie said:
Why do regions have to stop at those ones? Most other countries have a pyramid which fans out into smaller regions as it goes down, I don't really see why it wouldn't make sense to have a couple of tiers at West/East level before then splitting to, for example South/Ayrshire/Central at the lower levels in the west and Fife/Lothian/Borders at the very lowest levels, even if that is basically in the form of amateur leagues.Of course. Pretty much every pyramid system will get more local as you go down the leagues. It seems very strange to have the east and west leagues not regionalise further down the pyramid. I can't imagine it will help with new clubs joining.
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Looks like the Syngenta Twitter page has been deleted now as well (first team one rather than the juveniles one).
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2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:
Think this is what it'll look like with Syngenta's results voided. Main benefactor is Dalkeith who jump to a promotion spot while improving their goal difference as they lost 5-0.
While Arniston lose the points on the board advantage with the recent 2-1 win voided. In the chasing pack Stirling Uni EoS & Heriot-Watt also lose some points.
Relegation largely unchanged bar goal difference improvements. Although Ormiston find themselves further adrift from safety.
Does the EoS reprieve a team (i.e. fourth bottom) or promote an extra team from the division below? Assuming the standard way is to reprieve a team.
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36 minutes ago, patriot1 said:
You’re right.
I had it in my head that the winner of the EOS, WOS and SOS playoffs then met the bottom team in the Lowland league.
You don’t want to know what else is in my head.
Don't give the Lowland League any ideas...
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2 minutes ago, patriot1 said:
No, Dalbeattie.
If Linlithgow are promoted and Dalbeattie relegated then the EOS Premier will be reduced to 15 teams as Dalbeattie will play in the South of Scotland league. That is when the 4th team would be promoted from the First to make up the 16 teams.
If Edinburgh Uni finish bottom rather than Dalbeattie then 4th place won’t be promoted as Edinburgh will play in the EOS Premier.
Darvel don’t come into it as far as 4th place in the First is concerned.
They were saying Darvel because you mentioned the possibility of Linlithgow playing Dalbeattie in a playoff (which is impossible).
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For a pyramid to work, you can't have two leagues covering millions of the population and another covering 150,000 at the same level. Until they sort that out, we'll have problems. It's purely historical reasons keeping things like that. They'd never have set things up like that if they were to start from scratch designing the leagues in a pyramid.
Awaiting VT's red dot
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2 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:
This is wrong. This is where Scottish Football should step in and make it part of the rules that every team must have a designation. i.e. official league to go to by location if relegated. Makes a mockery of what is trying to be achieved.
What happens, (hypothetically), if Wellington wins, SOSFL, wins playoffs, following year in Lowland and then relegated and then relegated into the WOSFL due to their official location. This needs to be sorted once and for all for all leagues throughout Scotland. Teams like Harthill, right on the boundary between WOSFL and EOSFL we can understand but wellington, nope, not for me. Should not be allowed to join a league outwith their areas and the same for WOSFL, EOSFL etc... accepting teams outwith their area. Get the Areas sorted once and for all and thus the pyramid system, everyoen knows what league they would be in if relegated from one association to another.The best way to do that would have the SoS and WoS merge and then they are all in the same system with it becoming more regionalised as you go down the pyramid. If you have 79 teams over 5 tiers in the West including some of the strongest non-league sides vs 12 teams in 1 tier (including two reserve sides and very few licensed teams) then you leave it open to a club trying to jump the queue and picking the SoS. That's the biggest boundary issue now.
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I've said it before but the bottom line is that these leagues will eventually have no choice but to merge. The Scottish AFL has been in major decline in terms of numbers of many years and is on its last legs. The Stirling League will be gone soon enough too. Once these leagues disappear, the source of new clubs for the Caley and the Central will decline too as they could previously hope to pick up clubs from other leagues includings ones which have folded. They will all merge or fold one day, it's just about if they are proactive in making the changes of cling on until the numbers become too low to be feasible.
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8 hours ago, fanfromafar said:
I agree, it is a shame that there are not more border clubs in the EOS leagues but over recent years borders clubs don't tend to excel and actually have history of going in the other direction.
You only have to look at the likes of Duns, Selkirk, Kelso utd and also Eyemouth who have all had been part of the EOS setup but had to leave the league. Vale are on the down fall now, However the likes of Peebles, Coldstream, Hawick and Tweedmouth all seem to be holding their own playing at their level but i dont see much chance of either of them moving up the leagues.
The exception is obviously Gala and i do recall the vale & peebles having a good spell under rab paget years ago but this was because they attracted players from Edinburgh down & spending big cash.
Clubs like Chirnside, Duns even Greenlaw and West Linton would be good additions to the EOS leagues but is it worth the financial debt to potentially achieve not an awful lot.
Agree on the Pub part.
If there were more divisions added to the EoS and regionalisation at the bottom, I think you could get more interest from the borders clubs. The bottom tier is mainly West Lothian clubs just now because of them moving from the juniors after all the others moved but it will certainly feature more borders clubs in the coming years.
Coldstream are doing well currently to be in the first division. Tweedmouth and Peebles are also doing well to be mid-table in the second division but obviously they are playing at a low level. I certainly have to disagree with the idea that Hawick are "holding their own". They are bottom of the table with 5 points and 0 wins after 17 games. They have done very badly for a long, long time. Their last season in the old EoS Premier was 1987-88. They are likely to be stuck in the bottom tier of the EoS for a long time unless anything changes at the club.
Gala Fairydean are doing well although I think they'll be struggling to keep their place in the Lowland League once more of the ex-juniors get promoted. Berwick aren't doing great either. I think we'll be lucky to see even one borders club in the Lowland League or above in ten years time but it would be good to see some of them do better and it's too early to write Berwick off yet.
Edit: Berwick would actually be 7th without the B teams so are doing better than I thought they were. Not amazing for an ex-SPFL club but certainly miles better than Cowdenbeath and East Stirlingshire and ahead of Gala too.
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Fourth new club confirmed for Caley next year after Alva, Riverside and Stenhouse Community (Alva and Riverside leaving means Stirling League losing two of their remaining ten teams).
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14 minutes ago, beithboy said:
Bottom of the league is incredibly tight with oy 9 points between cambuslang and glenafton in 9th, with a couple of teams on free fall it could all change very quickly win a couple if wins and they will jump up the league.
can anyone explain why 5 teams are highlighted for relegation? I know is it is possible for 4 to go down depending on lowland league relegation and no team getting promoted but why 5?
I could be wrong on this but I think this is how it works:
-Bottom two guaranteed relegation
-Extra team relegated if WoS side loses playoff v EoS side
-Extra team or two relegated if bottom two in Lowland League go down and both go to the WoS (0-2 relegation spots in Lowland League depending on promotion/relegation between League Two and Highland/Lowland League). It won't be two sides going to the WoS this year as Edinburgh Uni will be one of the bottom two. Dalbeattie Star expected to go to the South if they get relegated although I'm not sure if that's 100% confirmed.
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21 hours ago, rockson said:
Bottom tier SPFL clubs have players who are - mostly - on one-season contracts. (A result of Bosman.) Why should these teams be expected to bounce straight back up when the supposedly "stronger" players who took them down in all probability won't stay around for the next season? They're effectively starting from scratch - as Cowdenbeath had to at the start of this season - whereas the teams they will now be competing with are more likely to have a reasonably settled squad.
Fair points. When England first opened up relegation from the old Third Division, teams regularly went back up at the start. Perhaps because the clubs are bigger there. I suppose the clubs going down just don't have a big enough fanbase or resources to go back up although Brechin are going strong this season.
Going back to the discussion with Viking (and not responding with these points to rockson, just that it saves making a new post), it's quite difficult to debate the topic when he has decided that we are not allowed to include three of the four promoted teams. We aren't allowed to include the former non-league clubs in the Championship and League One as they don't meet his criteria so we're left only with Bonnyrigg who are bottom of League Two. .
The idea that have now lost all the struggling SPFL clubs from League Two is also very flawed. Take Albion Rovers as an example. Since the Third Division/League Two began in 29 years ago, they've had just five season above the bottom tier. Queen's Park were in a very similar position until the recent changes. Montrose as well until the last five years. There are numerous examples of clubs who have struggled a lot. That doesn't mean they deserve to be out of the SPFL but the idea that all of the struggling clubs are gone from the league now is seriously flawed. You've also got Elgin and Annan who have not managed a promotion yet since they were elected into the league. Brechin were also certainly not in the weakest four or five SPFL clubs in recent decades.
I also never said that every club that goes up will be successful. Only that they have more potential to improve by being promoted and having a higher budget, higher crowds etc. in constrast to their abilities in the playoff and that I disagree with not having automatic relegation for the bottom team (this should be the same principle for any league including the Lowland League and it's ridiculous that the bottom LL team can potentially be repreived depending on who goes up/down). Bonnyrigg being bottom with several games to go does not prove that we are now out of non-league clubs who can do well in League Two and nor does East Stirling/Berwick/Cowden/Brechin being relegated mean that we're out of SPFL clubs who have historically struggled in the league.
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Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?
in Lowland League
Posted · Edited by stanley
I'm not saying there's no benefit to the youngsters by playing in the B team. The article seems to suggest that the B team being in the Lowland League will make some sort of impact on how many break through to our first team. I honestly can't see that happening. I could be wrong but I don't think us having a B team in the Lowland League for years will suddenly see a few of the youngsters becoming regulars in the first team at Hearts and making it with us. We basically don't really have any first team regulars who came through the youth ranks at us currently (there's been the odd fringe player like Smith) and I don't think a couple of seasons playing against non-league teams will change that.
Regardless of the above, I still strongly object to their being B teams in the Lowland League . I think there's more benefit of sending the players out on loan to play alongside older players than there is of having a large group playing together in the Lowland League. We'll certainly have to improve over the years to compete once you get Pollok, Auchinleck, Linlithgow etc. replacing the likes of Edinburgh Uni and Dalbeattie.