stanley

I don't think it will save the game but it will end up being the only option for some of the leagues as the numbers continue to decline. If you look at HJ's stats on the rate of decline, you're probably right that it will end up at 200 clubs in a few years time. It's a pity there aren't more young people willing to commit to playing each week. I wonder if the decline will eventually level out or just continue for years.

That would be been a great way to add some more excitement to the leagues and centralise everything. Too many people will be trying to protect their own league/position (as is always the case in Scottish football). Instead of a simple merger, you've got clubs jumping ship to other leagues. They'll eventually run out of a source for new clubs when leagues like Stirling shut down due to lack of numbers and will merge some years down the line...

Pretty sure it's only 14 Scottish AFL teams now as Hillington have resigned. Currently looking at 31 teams in the Central Scottish/Scottish and 28 in the Caledonian for next season I believe.

It's just trolling.

Can you justify it being part of tier 6? 1) When relegation finally expands from the Lowland League, having the SoS there will cause issues. There should be three relegation spots from the LL and they should be shared between the WoS and EoS. 2) What possible reason is there to have the WoS and EoS (covering millions of people) alongside the SoS (covering 150k people)? Why should a club like Glasgow Wellington be able to apply and potentially jump straight in at tier 6 when other clubs are starting at tier 9 or 10?

It could become a problem as Lowland League relegation opens up in a more fair way. There should be an absolute minimum of two relegation spots from the Lowland League but probably three. To have three as things stand, would involve automatic promotion for WoS, EoS and SoS champions. In reality, it should be WoS and EoS champions up automatically and then a playoff between the runners up for the final promotion spot. That would be fair IMO. Not an issue just now with the usual self-protectionism operating but it could become an issue further down the line.

You didn't disappoint, thanks. As with most pyramid systems, the levels get more local the further you go down. It doesn't make much sense to have level 10 as a west-wide region so you would expect some more regionalisation as you go down. The problem at the moment is that we have clubs in level 5 who are smaller than clubs below because of the juniors joining the pyramid late. You would never have a league at level 6 for one small region like Dumfries & Galloway if you were do things logically. Leagues like that would come further down the pyramid. Clearly, the vast majority (if not all) of the SoS couldn't compete with other level 6 clubs.

Of course. Pretty much every pyramid system will get more local as you go down the leagues. It seems very strange to have the east and west leagues not regionalise further down the pyramid. I can't imagine it will help with new clubs joining.

Looks like the Syngenta Twitter page has been deleted now as well (first team one rather than the juveniles one).

Does the EoS reprieve a team (i.e. fourth bottom) or promote an extra team from the division below? Assuming the standard way is to reprieve a team.

Don't give the Lowland League any ideas...

They were saying Darvel because you mentioned the possibility of Linlithgow playing Dalbeattie in a playoff (which is impossible).

For a pyramid to work, you can't have two leagues covering millions of the population and another covering 150,000 at the same level. Until they sort that out, we'll have problems. It's purely historical reasons keeping things like that. They'd never have set things up like that if they were to start from scratch designing the leagues in a pyramid. Awaiting VT's red dot

The best way to do that would have the SoS and WoS merge and then they are all in the same system with it becoming more regionalised as you go down the pyramid. If you have 79 teams over 5 tiers in the West including some of the strongest non-league sides vs 12 teams in 1 tier (including two reserve sides and very few licensed teams) then you leave it open to a club trying to jump the queue and picking the SoS. That's the biggest boundary issue now.

I've said it before but the bottom line is that these leagues will eventually have no choice but to merge. The Scottish AFL has been in major decline in terms of numbers of many years and is on its last legs. The Stirling League will be gone soon enough too. Once these leagues disappear, the source of new clubs for the Caley and the Central will decline too as they could previously hope to pick up clubs from other leagues includings ones which have folded. They will all merge or fold one day, it's just about if they are proactive in making the changes of cling on until the numbers become too low to be feasible.

If there were more divisions added to the EoS and regionalisation at the bottom, I think you could get more interest from the borders clubs. The bottom tier is mainly West Lothian clubs just now because of them moving from the juniors after all the others moved but it will certainly feature more borders clubs in the coming years. Coldstream are doing well currently to be in the first division. Tweedmouth and Peebles are also doing well to be mid-table in the second division but obviously they are playing at a low level. I certainly have to disagree with the idea that Hawick are "holding their own". They are bottom of the table with 5 points and 0 wins after 17 games. They have done very badly for a long, long time. Their last season in the old EoS Premier was 1987-88. They are likely to be stuck in the bottom tier of the EoS for a long time unless anything changes at the club. Gala Fairydean are doing well although I think they'll be struggling to keep their place in the Lowland League once more of the ex-juniors get promoted. Berwick aren't doing great either. I think we'll be lucky to see even one borders club in the Lowland League or above in ten years time but it would be good to see some of them do better and it's too early to write Berwick off yet. Edit: Berwick would actually be 7th without the B teams so are doing better than I thought they were. Not amazing for an ex-SPFL club but certainly miles better than Cowdenbeath and East Stirlingshire and ahead of Gala too.

Fourth new club confirmed for Caley next year after Alva, Riverside and Stenhouse Community (Alva and Riverside leaving means Stirling League losing two of their remaining ten teams).

I could be wrong on this but I think this is how it works: -Bottom two guaranteed relegation -Extra team relegated if WoS side loses playoff v EoS side -Extra team or two relegated if bottom two in Lowland League go down and both go to the WoS (0-2 relegation spots in Lowland League depending on promotion/relegation between League Two and Highland/Lowland League). It won't be two sides going to the WoS this year as Edinburgh Uni will be one of the bottom two. Dalbeattie Star expected to go to the South if they get relegated although I'm not sure if that's 100% confirmed.

Fair points. When England first opened up relegation from the old Third Division, teams regularly went back up at the start. Perhaps because the clubs are bigger there. I suppose the clubs going down just don't have a big enough fanbase or resources to go back up although Brechin are going strong this season. Going back to the discussion with Viking (and not responding with these points to rockson, just that it saves making a new post), it's quite difficult to debate the topic when he has decided that we are not allowed to include three of the four promoted teams. We aren't allowed to include the former non-league clubs in the Championship and League One as they don't meet his criteria so we're left only with Bonnyrigg who are bottom of League Two. . The idea that have now lost all the struggling SPFL clubs from League Two is also very flawed. Take Albion Rovers as an example. Since the Third Division/League Two began in 29 years ago, they've had just five season above the bottom tier. Queen's Park were in a very similar position until the recent changes. Montrose as well until the last five years. There are numerous examples of clubs who have struggled a lot. That doesn't mean they deserve to be out of the SPFL but the idea that all of the struggling clubs are gone from the league now is seriously flawed. You've also got Elgin and Annan who have not managed a promotion yet since they were elected into the league. Brechin were also certainly not in the weakest four or five SPFL clubs in recent decades. I also never said that every club that goes up will be successful. Only that they have more potential to improve by being promoted and having a higher budget, higher crowds etc. in constrast to their abilities in the playoff and that I disagree with not having automatic relegation for the bottom team (this should be the same principle for any league including the Lowland League and it's ridiculous that the bottom LL team can potentially be repreived depending on who goes up/down). Bonnyrigg being bottom with several games to go does not prove that we are now out of non-league clubs who can do well in League Two and nor does East Stirling/Berwick/Cowden/Brechin being relegated mean that we're out of SPFL clubs who have historically struggled in the league.

Interesting post, HJ. I'd be amazed if the Stirling & District League is still around in five years time. In fact, I think it will be struggling to survive even one or two more years. 10 clubs remaining and two of them have already applied for the Caledonian League. Even running next year will be a challenge. Is it not the case with the Midlands League that, beyond the top division, it's just reserves? Aren't there are only 12 clubs left? I think the Midlands could easily disappear as well. Edit: Yes, it's one division of 12 first teams and then another division of reserves. The overall total in the league doesn't give an accurate picture as you effectively lose two teams every time one folds (the first team and the reserve team). I also think the Scottish AFL would have folded in the next five years as well had it not gone ahead with the merger.

Yes, of course, but that was the point being disputed by another user.

That sounds perfectly reasonable. I hope the move works out for Threave and it will be interesting to seeing what level they settle down at in the WoS. I can see why they would leave the SoS and I think there was some logic in their decision. I wonder if any of the other SoS clubs would move in the future although Threave are the only one who ended up in the EoS for a few years and later the Lowland League so are presumably a bit more ambitious than the others. Also interesting to see what happens when Dalbeattie go down (either this season or in the coming years) and Gretna. Has anything changed in the SoS to make it feel like it was becoming an amateur league compared to where it was previously?

I'd be surprised if that is the case. Threave probably moved for a new challenge. They'd been in the Lowland League previously and resigned after finishing bottom so I don't think they had big ambitions for the Lowland League (nor do I think any of the current SoS clubs do). The SoS used to get new clubs from the Dumfries & District Amateur League but that folded many years ago. They don't really have a source now for new clubs at all. Potentially a boy clubs forming an adult club or an old club reforming. They're down to just 10 first teams at the moment (plus two reserves). They're probably pretty desperate for new members and willing to accept clubs like Glasgow Wellington. They're no longer the only senior non-league in the west so they don't have much chance of the likes of Bonnyton joining as previously happened. Only real chance is a club wanting to take a shot at the Lowland League and skip the challenge of multiple promotions in the WoS. I think they may consider accepting a club from outwith the region purely to boost the numbers rather than as some sort of revenge mission against the WoS. The problem would be if multiple clubs from Glasgow etc. apply as it would affect the current members. I can't really see it happening anyway.

Cowdenbeath and East Stirling are near the bottom of the Lowland League and Berwick are struggling too. If League Two was significantly stronger than the Lowland League then you'd expect the clubs to bounce back immediately but not one team has gone down and won the Lowland League and, this season, the teams aren't even close. There are a number of SPFL clubs who had very, very little success in the league for many years. Is your argument that there should be no relegation at all because you don't believe a club like Bonnyrigg to be worthy of a leaegue place? You've not mentioned Edinburgh who went up and have now established themselves as a League One club. My original post was in response to the idea that a team doesn't deserve to go up if they lose the playoff. I disagree. One team should be relegated from League Two and replaced by the Highland/Lowland League playoff winners. To have a playoff for the bottom team in League Two is absurd. My post stated that you can't clearly determine how a team will do in League Two following promotion based on how they perform in a playoff against a team in a higher league. Being promoted tends to mean higher crowds and a higher budget. It doesn't guarantee that every promoted team will be successful but Bonnyrigg (being one of four teams promoted into the league so far) currently being bottom with many games left to go to avoid finishing bottom is just one example and doesn't prove anything about promotion/relegation between League Two and tier 5.

If relegations finally opens up a bit more from the Lowland League, certainly wouldn't be a surprise to see East Stirling end up in the EoS in the next few years and possibly one or two others over time.