ObserverFromAfar

Oh well, it appears that any new board will "livi within their means". Sames promisies as the last 4 owners over the last 14 years. Subject of course to any hasty rule changes - but not, of course, not to benefit just one team/excuse but for the betterment of Scottish league football in general. One idea for the SFL - why not get a credable non-league team with a suitable stadium and promote them directly to Division 1? Overcome all sorts of problems identified. But yet again, the SFL administrators working for their paymasters, the SFL Blazers, come up with a shambles of a fudged solution. QUestion.. I have not got access to the SFL rules and regulations - but can the SFL change the rules/regulations during the course of a season and impact the outcome of that season? Idea - time for people on this site if they are truely up in armsof this disgrace to write to Audit Scotland, the Internal Audit Department of West Lothian council and make representations to their MSP/MP requesting an investigation to the actions and behaviour of the council, its elected representatives and appointed officials in the whole Livi affair and actions of suggested and alledged "insider dealings" between them and the 3 parties involved inthe "take over" of Livi, and the "favourable terms" deals offered to one council tennant and tax payer as opposed to the majority. On a positive note - looks like LLD and Phanton will have a team to follow next season! Enjoy and be proud! Oh.. if does the Trust and the true Livi fans have any share and say in the operation of this "consortium"? What %-age of say/ownership will it have? Anything close to significant, or maybe only a wagging tail that will be covered in shit the next time the dog up front decides to piss and shit everywhere? Lastly, what pence in the pound is be proposed as a repayment amount by the alledged new owners?

I do.. apologies for the sarcasm. He does appear to be the last member of the 'consortium' standing. And the individual/collective shortcomings of that group are subjects you've personally been shouting since last summer LLD. All hypothetical - if the group hadn't turned up last summer, would Flynn have been in the same position now, or do you think the club may have closed 12 months ago, or some other outcome? Could it be that this was inevitable? Or if the Trust had come up with a proposal last summer, a different chapter would have been written this season?

Shurely shome mishtake... maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick here... but if he had been signing all the necessary cheques (with funds to honour them) then the current pickle would have been avoided?

Now, LLD, you now may begin to understand in a small way how I and many others felt in the run up to the last Meadowbank Thistle league game at Morton in May 1995, whilst you helped a couple of others "edit" the programme/became an apologist for that regieme. Belittling what me and others were campaigning against for the previous 2 years and more, and what we were feeling running up to that trip to Cappielow. Consider yourself an "ordinary Joe"? Don't kid yourself on LLD.

Any truth in the rumour that whilst the Interim Manager has offered Massone £25k to leave (funded by unknown sources), someone has offered Massone £26k to stay? Is a big bidding war imminent? No? I didn't think so.

I suppose that there may be requirements for the money to be spent "evenly" across all debts, rather than one particular party if the money is handed to the club/administrator. Just a guess/hunch, rather than knowledge. May be an idea to suggest a "hardship fund" type thing is set-up for employees to "apply" for money to help with pressing bills and keep their creditors at bay, with the "fund" being run independently of the club. Just a thought, not sure about viability. The PLayers Union may be able to suggest something here.

Hello Lass, With players pay day due this week, THursday/Friday (last Thursday or Last day of the month) and no doubt much/most of the non-playing staff still due payment, do yuo envisage the Fighting FUnd to be donated to cover these expenses, or "saved" to help a bid to buy the club out of administration?

Com'on PLL - don't put yourself down - thought you had changed for the better previously? Could have sworn you wrote you had leanings towards Celtic but then changed when Livi sprung up beside Bubbles?!

Interesting if the Council at the same time as going through a legal process in relation to a significant unpaid rental arrears and, fair to say, breach of contract, are somehow bound (legally or otherwise) to ensure that the stadium they are providing to their rogue tennants is up to scratch. Even if the council were legally bound by the commerical lease, if they refused to do the work citing the arrears, I would be surprised if Livingston would be able to fund a court action against them, let alone win the case. Positiviely, its good to read that the LiviTrust have raised a few thousand pounds in the last couple of weeks asa fighting fund - significantly more than I expected. To Jimbo, PLL, LIvi looks like the divisions are being bridged and it is good first step to a fair financial start, but where that starting line is .. who knows?

I've finished considering your feedback, Jimbo - and I've decided to ignore it.

Never saw myself as the kicking sort and being aggressive - more just trying, as an observor with a limited view of the world, to highlight and understand the contradictions and absurdities of life at Livingston as I see them. Thank you for the candid feedback - I'll see if I want to do anything with it.

Apologies.. have completely misunderstod Pedro replying to LLD v 2 saying "Shut up you negative A.**s.!" - interpreted that as being strongly arguementative and taking a stance what could be seen as not the same as LLD v2. Dont know what made me think that there were divisions there.... silly me!

Aye, obviously the plumbing problems at Creamery were due to the tsunami of local and national tax payers money being flushed down the toilet at Livingston, and causing a major sewage problem down the line at Bathgate. Some poetic justice there somewhere. Seriously - HTG is quite right - there is more genuine and needy people and groups who need local government support, sympathy and cash. If Massone wanted to take advantage of fiscal flexibiility and handouts, he should have bought himself a screwed up Bank. Maybe he thought he was, and someone took advantage of english not being his native language "Angelo ... great investment opportunity... it's an old British Bank... going through rough times, but good opportunity .. rebranding and relocaton failed - on good development opportunity.. Oh that old bank? Meadow Bank" Anyway, I think the real issue on the Monday night friendly is the £16 to watch a game at Bathgate, but the £16 for a preseason friendly - that's a scandal. BUt as always, if you need to look at some bizarre views, look no further that than LiviLions. SOme cretains are now slagging of BAthgate Thistle's ground as being no better than a public football park. The irony of Livingston being a public football park obviously is lost on "Pedro" (http://www.livilions.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=299501&postcount=82) You have to hand it to Massone though - he's managed to divide the LIvi fans again.

Maybe Massone's planning to kill the club off and bury it on Monday night... Quote from the Evening News ... "THE head chef at crisis-hit Livingston Football Club, who quit because his wages were paid anything from a week to a month late or not at all, has been awarded almost £8,000 compensation by an employment tribunal. Andrew Park, 32, complained he was the only person who spoke English, everyone else spoke Italian after the company was acquired by its current owners in June last year. Italian Angelo Massone is the club's chairman. It meant he was unable to understand the substance of the conversations, instructions were given to him in Italian, and he was presented with menus in Italian with no indication what the menus meant in English." It would be unfair to ask if was being asked to "cook the books" instead of "cook the food". 'Cos there is no book cooking going on.

£16 is pointless ... Angelo Massone should go all the way and make it a heroic and noteable fund raising game. "Save Me and Livi - £1,000,000 for adults, £300,000 for concessions. Season tickets not valid. Ambassadors and The Man free.". Better to get nothing through the turnstile for charging way over the odds, than a few quid and ripping people off.

It opens ... "We would like to communicate to all supporters of Livingston Football Club that we are continuing tirelessly to do everything we possibly can to save the club" A 2nd sentence missing there I think. "We would like to... but cannot". Oh dear.. If only the Medowbank Thistle Fans' £80,000 bid to buy majoriy shareholding in the club from Hunter back in April 1994 had been accepted. All this heartache and wrenching from the poor poor Livi fans could have been avoided. That £80,000 was raised in a couple of weeks, a written offer made and declined by Hunter. If only he had said yes.... what could have been? The Thistle fans united in the face of adversity and went to save the club with a real bid, no sugar daddy (nor pseudo sugar daddy)in the wings and a desire to live within their means. Some people are learning the hard way about "supporting" a team. Edited - change of Diversity to Adveristy - thank you Sergeant Wilson in 4129 for the editing advice! Most appreciated!

And now the Evening News reports that Rankine & MacDougall are getting it on to save Livi.. and raise £500k (apparently.. not confirmed... "source" etc etc) to offer creditors probably less than 50p in £. http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/Re...ston.5443532.jp No mention of the source... may be Traveller Man? Reliable - or just someone flying a kite to see who else jumps on board with cash? If true, will Trust run from McDougall given they don't support Rankine? Again - appears full debts being avoided - some nonsense about Administration wanting to be avoided - and agreeing less debts with all creditors. Surely the Council would not accept this, as itwoul create a very dangerous precedent for what is acceptable to all those peope who are in arrears to it. A RESCUE package for Livingston worth £500,000 could be on the table next week as Neil Rankine and Gordon McDougall team up to save the club from administration. It's understood from sources that the pair are expected to raise the cash and will offer creditors 50 per cent of their debts as they would receive nothing if the club went bust. Rankine says chairman Angelo Massone must stand down if the club is to survive but one of the main sticking points of any deal is the Italian's demands. He owns 76 per cent of the shareholding and says he has invested £500,000 in the club which he wants back. Rankine met with a group of fans and Livingston MSP Angela Constance this week without the presence of Massone in a bid to take a possible deal forward. A source said: "Even £500,000 might not be enough to save the club which has debts of at least £1.35 million. Mr Massone wants his creditors to accept reduced offers because they won't get a penny if it goes into administration, so he must be willing to accept at least half of what he wants. "Even if all the debts were halved, it still might not be enough to save the club from administrators and that's not what anyone wants. There will be £500,000 on the table for a deal next week. That's all that can be raised to save the club. Whether it's enough we don't know yet."

A recent post on LiviLIons (http://www.livilions.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=297775&postcount=22) from "LFL Trust" confirms hope and dillusion remains high amongst those wanting their dream ticket to take over livi (they've talked with Rankine, but cannot align the 2 sets of philosophies... apparently attitude to youth development is the clincher): The club has had owners in recent times who have done us no favours at all, and we have been through the administration process once already. A second is looming large unless a way can be found to circumvent it. We are running out of chances with SFL, Council, the other teams in the leagues and more. The next owners/managers of the club MUST get it right. We have to get the club to a point where it is financially stable and sustainable, living within it's means. It's not going to be an easy year or two getting to that point, but it must be done. If we survive this time, we may not get another chance to get it right. "in recent times...." - more like throughout our 14 year history. "running out of chance with... and more" - why not say "we have over spent continuosly throughout the 14 years, had the good times funded by the deteriment of local businesses and suppliers" "It's not going to be an easy year or two getting to that point" - interesting admission that if administration was to be enterest (not a cert) and the Trust preferred owner gets the club, they don't anticipate much pain being anticipated for the "new club" if, whilst others pick up the financial pain and subsidise their good times. So that's acceptable to them?

But there's another bit of genius - and I think one the SPFA must want to do but be scared of the consequences for, which I don't blame them for. Unless the players and the Union make a whole hearted attempt at complaining about being late etc, I don't think there is much the SFL can do. Will the Union and players go for it big style, complain or go on strike? Well. If the outcome was for LIvi to go closer to the wall, I doubt it. Who else would be prepared to offer them a full time football employment contract at the moment? The players will be aware there would be little to no chance of getting paid as well as their contracts say, and probably fear that the chances of getting paid at some point are higher at Livi than they would be if Livi weren't there. They will take their chances whilst they can. In a different economic environment it may be different.

In reality, the SFL are just the the member clubs and Charimen etc of the 30 SFL clubs. Most, if not all, won't force this too much. It would create too much of a precedent, and given that most clubs are aware of that they could be in a position of difficulty at anytime, they won't want to implement or activate something that could force their clubs to face disastorous penalties. What would be interesting though would be for the opposition fans to lobby their club's chairmen and directors to do something through their membership of the SFL, and see what response they get and what action happens

You just cannot keep a man wearing the guise of a saviour down. Neil Rankine is banging on in the Sun on Monday about how the council needs to be lenient on the outststanding debt owed, being even more flexible about the payment options than they already have been (if they've already bent 360 degrees, how many more degrees does the man want?). Give him time to get the cash and team together to do a deal... oh, he wants the club to be run properly too. Oh, and he believes he can fix it (despite not having seen the full set of books). No mention of banking on administration, but then again no mention of administration not being at the core of his rescue dream. Look like he is, though, prepared to throw £250k at the debt. Rankine said: "Can I fix this? Probably. "I have the principles of a deal to save Livi, but that is not going to happen quickly and I can't do it on my own, I need help. "I spoke to a politician on Saturday and I suggested they call a meeting of all the parties involved. I've got to make more people involved and get all the fans on the same side because there are tensions. "I'm trying to see any route to take this on. I want to see the club run properly. "I'd like to get on the board and maybe throw something like quarter of a million pounds at it. "We all have to get round a table as a united unit, but for a start the council must help. They must take the £70,000 payment we are offering just now and give the club more time." Big Ang now sounds more desparate, assuming this quote is accurate in the same piece: "I desperately want the club to survive but unless we get more financial backing we will have no option but to place the club in administration. I hope that someone from the council will talk to us." Get real, Big Ang ... they have been listening to you for months.. listening to your nonsense about paying on time, buying the stadium, everything ok, yada yada yada..... It's time for Judge, Liquidator, and goodness knows who else (law enforcement officials?) to talk to you and you to talk to them - - - I'm sure they will be very interested in what you have to say, Big Ang.

Interesting developments at Dumbarton... talk about their owners looking for plannign permission for land around their ground, maybe giving up their stadium for another type of ground... then maybe ground sharing with Clydebank . or maybe not sharing.. but what's been posted on on the 2nd division board seems to be concern rather than comfort. Club statement appears confusing and uncertain. http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.ph...110255&st=0 Item on BBC site.. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/t...ton/8134605.stm Is Rankine still involved at Dumbarton????

Mmmm.. would it be fair on Livingston's Junior team to have another new competitorin town, competing on the non-league stage? Why don't the fans go down to Station Park (or the Juniors move upto Almondvale) and help out Livingston Utd if Livingston hit the wall, instead of forming a new team? Quick solution all round - team ready for 2009-10 and no breakage for the support to run off elsewhere.

Apologies for going back through history. OK - no pyramid system, but there was an opportunity in the early 90s to joint the league,when it expanded from 38 to 40 clubs. This was when ICT and Ross County joined the league in 1994/95. At this time, where was the Livingston application to join the league? Oh, there wasn't one. Why didn't the then Livingston Development Agency and the local councils initiate an Livingston Junior application to join the league, and not go through the franchise route? If there was such a compelling case, why was no application submitted?

"ideas for after we are saved" My idea? They should all just wake up and realise that the saving bit was just a dream.