ObserverFromAfar

Good research QP! Follow up question - Can you have an interest in an SFL club and an East of Scotland Club / Junior Club?!

Breaking news in the Record.. Gordon McDougall (owned Cowendbeath and ran stock cars there and at Newtongrange around the old Victoria Park, the old home of Newtongrange Star) is interested! Now.. he's a man who knows about dealing with dangerous driving, old bangers and destruction derbies. Just the man needed for LIvi! Wants to buy club for a quid (given the Livingston Trust offered Massone £2 a couple of weeks ago, the value is certainly depreciating) rather than from the Administrators, apparently. Fun Last paragraph: "However, Massone maintains he is not interested in a deal. He said: "Mr McDougall is a very nice man but I want to build Livingston. I'm not interested in selling it."'For too long club has been like a bad epidsode of Dream Team'" Was there ever a good episode of Dream Team? ISn't Dream Team now defunct? Oh... maybe The Big Man's analogy isn't so bad after all! More anlaysis to come. http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/sfl/...86908-21416648/

OK - we can see the alarm bells, but... are they being sounded? Can we hear them? Are we too far away to hear them? Can the Livi fans hear them, or not see them? Or can they neither hear nor see them? Maybe some one who is good at general hammering is needed to get that bell sounded loud and clear for all to hear. Maybe someone who can hammer the drink can transfer their skills over to hammering the Livi Alarm bell? Can anyone think of suitable candidates?

It's a damn shame the comedian who assumed the Angelo Massone persona on twitter wasn't able to keep it going over the last few months. Having said, that, I don't think he/she could have done would have been a patch on the last few days postings on LiviLions. http://twitter.com/AngeloMassone Oh, look at the time - it's almost Massone Time on Livilions. Looking forward to tonight's pearls of wisdom.

"if the worst happens?" - Tell you what, it is difficult to see what the worst outcome is in this situation: - Livingston going to the wall, - continuing as is, - administration, and bought out by some one / some organisation with staff (playing and non-playing) and creditors receiving a nominal pittance of the monies they are owed. Difficult to tell which is worse - or even better.

Another player moving on... by the looks of things no fee paid by Ross County for Gary Millar - one less player to pay I suppose ... bbc site: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/t...nty/8078970.stm

It's now really kicking off on Livilions: Someone claiming to be Angelo Massone (maybe him / maybe not - but appears to really be him) has started off a new thread - difficult to sensibly summarise what I have just read apart from repeating "It's now really kicking off" http://www.livilions.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=16126

OK - if it is Angelo Massone posting, there may be something lost in translation given that English is not his mother tongue. Therefore, what I think I have been reading may not be what he intended, but here is what I think is a summary: 1. LIvingston/his consortium is back in court in early June appealing against the award of LIvinite Spot funds of £300000 / £600000 to Pearse Flynn (see previous posts). 2. His consortium was the only show in town last year when the club was up for sale - where was the Trust? Why didn't they purchase the club then? Why is it only recently they want to take the club over? Certain thoughts posted by Massone, but not sure of the basis or legal implications of repeating them here. 3. The reasons why there are cash flow problems: - The consortium are really not responsible for paying the "old" debts incurred prior to them purchasing the club. - his consortium has "invested" money to pay the bills - and this has created a cash flow problem (not sure how that works...) - this one I may have got wrong, but my interpretation of "The Board of Livingston FC announces any legal action against this organization that, using government aegis, is causing serious damage to Our club and to our business activity." is - if the creditors didn't use protection afforded to them by the laws of contract and stopped using the proper legal channels for seeking repayment of monies owed to them, there wouldn't be any problems! 4. Certain members of the Trust should resign. Anyone agree/disagree or got more to add?

MOre interesting stuff elsewhere. Someone with an ID AM (as in Angelo Massone) has posted on livinews... seems to be recommending certain actions, but not quite sure I believe what I think has been posted. Still trying to read and summarise.. but read it and see what you can make of it. http://livinews.wordpress.com/2009/05/30/l...n/#comment-2060

Oh... interesting one from Scotland on Sunday. If true, the SFL are now being forced to act through court actions and not through their own choice - says a lot really. (http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/football/Portuguese-legend-Figo-36-calls.5319380.jp) Livingston payments withheld by league FEARS for the future of Livingston have grown after the Scottish Football League withheld their seasonal payment. The troubled First Division outfit again failed to pay players on time on Thursday and were desperate for the league money – understood to be around £50,000 – to ease their growing cash woes. The SFL convened at Hampden on Thursday for their annual general meeting, where all clubs are handed end-of-season payments. However, Livi's money was arrested after league chiefs received a Sheriff order blocking them from giving out the money. SFL chief executive David Longmuir met Livi chairman Angelo Massone earlier this month to seek assurances after a season blighted by late wage payments at Almondvale. But promises have quickly been unfilled, with the Italian now scrambling around for funds after the club again failed to pay players on time for May. Some non-playing staff have not now been paid for over two months. A string of creditors, among them West Lothian Council for unpaid rent, continue to seek money. Queen of the South have signed goalkeeper Ludovic Roy and midfielder Rocco Quinn who have been released by Dundee and Hamilton Accies, respectively.

I am trying to logically think this through to conclusion. I appreciate that there are various scenarios and paths that the next episodes could follow - including Massone and the current owners/board turning things around very quickly and saving the day. It may happen, but the probability is, I think, low. So focussing on the Trust and what I have read on LiviLions and elsewhere, it appears the Livingston Trust wish to build a community club for the benefit of the local community and business, but the only route they have into taking over the Club is the Football Club going into Administration. At this point, the Trust could put in a bid to obtain the club from the Administrators. The bid would, I suspect, only be a %-age of the total outstanding debts due to the creditors - who include local businesses. Now obviously, there are a number of unknowns - the total size of the outstanding debts, the money the Trust have to buy the club from the Administrator, any extra costs incurred during any Administration, any assests that may be dispossed of by the Administrators and money raised to cover outstanding debts. But is this not one of the challenges that Trust are facing - there may be a high probability of them not being able to pay the local businesses in full if they assume contol, and these are the same businesses that they are looking for support from to build the community club? If my observations correct, can these two opposing positions be reconciled?

The Herald is leading the charge on the May month-end players' wages story.. http://www.theherald.co.uk/sport/football/..._assurances.php Of course, there still remains the non-playing staff - hopefully they have been paid and no issues remain. Even with a gap between what the players' contracts contain (last Thursday of the month), what Massone is said to have verbally advised the players (last day of the month), the players will need to be paid by tomorrow to prevent the SFL being obliged to look at the situation - e.g. ask for more verbal assurances, deduct a few points - say 10 points knocked off to the 08/09 season tally - resulting in LIvingston assuming 10th place and the automatic relgation spot, and the playoff history being rewritten, disputed etc. So if action is taken and to ensure lack of chaos, if the SFL were to opt for a straight relegation and replacement with another team in Divsion 1, it would be an easier punishment to apply than a points reduction for 08/09?

Thanks Flash! They sound impressive at first, but when optional and flimsy words such as "may" "it sees fit" and the lack of actual firm rules about points deductions or relegations in any pre-described situation, gives any Committee a lot of wriggle room to decide: 1. whether they even want to look at any case; 2. and then, if they elect to examine a case and conclude that it is not 100% legitimate, whether they need to apply any penalty at all. To be balanced, it may be covered elsewhere in the rules, but, Flash, I have no doubt that you have looked at the rules and this is the only relevant section. Therefore, the rules concur with what Banjo and Mr Freemason said earlier on at 12:37 & 13:37.

Anyone been to the reception yet to see the collection box(es) at Living-beyond-their-means? Was wondering if there was only one, or whether there is one for each creditor or person on the payroll, with a label detailing how much is due to be paid, the age of the debt, and any other key information (e.g. is there a repayment plan or not set-up, have they already taken Livingston to court, if wages aren't paid in next couple of days the player may be able to leave the club for nothing on Monday). The fans can then make an educated decision if they want to make a donation and who they feel is most worthy of their kindness. Anyone got any ideas?

Let's be fair, Duncan. I think it is very short term problem too, because I don't see there being anything left in the short, medium or long term....

Oh.. things are getting even more desparate. Appeals directly on club website for season tickets to be purchased very very soon, and that income not to be invested for next season but to cover expenses already incurred and need to be paid very very soon too. Interesting notes about £500,000 already "invested" by the board. I feel this is probably insignifant to the money spent by the taxpayers on building the stadium originally, or what the fans have spent in supporting the club. "Short term cash flow issues" - always seems to be a phrase I hear when a company is about to fail. If previous bills are paid out of advances in future income, how will you pay current and future bills if that income has gone? A very steep downward spiral to an inevitable conclusion I think. Not sure whether it is a shame or a sham. http://www.livingstonfc.co.uk/ "LIVINGSTON FOOTBALL CLUB, YOUR CLUB, OUR CLUB,NEEDS YOUR SUPPORT. We ask you to buy, as soon as possible, your season tickets and/or make a donation to Livingston Football Club at the Reception desk within the stadium. All monies collected will be used to pay off creditors and assist the club with current short term cash flow issues. The board communicates, until now, we have invested approximately half a million pounds in the club. We fully appreciate your support at this difficult time and take this opportunity to thank you very much. Yours in Livingston THE BOARD OF LIVINGSTON FOOTBALL CLUB"

Some notes and commentary on the Livilions site http://www.livilions.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=16068 Some highlights from those postings: - the desire to have 300 season tickets sold by the end of next week (end of may & payday again...) to prevent something bad happening - potentially administration. - standard stuff on Massone pleading for bridges to be built; - the money to buy the stadium is from a source that will not provide money to pay the current debts; - the Trust put in an inflated £2 bid to buy the club.

Of all the things that were wrong with the Meadowbank leg of the journey that ended in Spring 1995, I don't think that leaving creditors in the lurch was one. I assume therefore it was the time from Summer 1995 onwards that needs to be referenced here.

Let's be fair.. according to the BBC, "The 37-year-old Italian was not present in court when the case called at Edinburgh Sheriff Court on Friday and has yet to make a plea. His solicitor, Richard Soutar, asked for the case to be continued for three weeks". I'm not a legal expert, but based on how it is reported this seems a legitimate request rather than someone who is ignoring the court. THe full report from the BBC is : "Livingston Football Club owner Angelo Massone has been charged with failing to stop after a road accident in Edinburgh. The 37-year-old Italian was not present in court when the case called at Edinburgh Sheriff Court on Friday and has yet to make a plea. His solicitor, Richard Soutar, asked for the case to be continued for three weeks. The alleged incident took place on 29 November at Henderson Row. The charge claims Mr Massone was the driver of a car which collided with and damaged another car but he failed to stop and give his name and address. A further charge alleges he failed to report the accident to police within 24 hours. Mr Massone, from Edinburgh, is also due to stand trial later this year accused of being drunk in charge of a car in Edinburgh's Bonnington Road on the same date." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinbu...ast/8052249.stm

Excellent use of a "lessons learned" reports from the inception of Livingston that resulted from the take over of Meadowbank.

The Scotsman is previewing Angelo Massone's busy day - a couple of meetings either end of the M8. I wonder if he will be driving to the meetings, or relying on public transport? The stadium rent arrears don't seem to be that much really... but not sure how much is to be invoiced on 12 May this year. http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/sport/Mass...West.5242646.jp Massone's Livingston D-day with West Lothian council Published Date: 07 May 2009 By Darren Johnstone LIVINGSTON chairman Angelo Massone will today meet West Lothian council for crunch talks and attempt to persuade the officials to sell the stadium to the club. The Italian wants to gain ownership of Almondvale to push ahead with his plans for the ground. However, before the proposed sale is even broached at the all-important meeting, council leader Peter Johnston is set to grill Massone over how he intends to pay the First Division club's rent arrears, which are estimated to be over £100,000. The outstanding monies is from Livingston's use of Almondvale during the 2007/08 campaign, a debt Massone inherited when he completed the Italian consortium's takeover from Irish businessman Pearse Flynn last summer. Council chiefs will also seek assurances that rent from this season will be paid as an invoice is expected to land on Massone's desk on 12 May. Massone has also been invited to attend to the Scottish Football League's management committee meeting at Hampden to explain the worsening crisis at the First Division outfit. It's thought the SFL want to speak to him face-to-face after the entire playing staff signed a letter for the football authority that outlines their concerns over the late payment of wages.

Mr Flynn is providing his view point in today's press: http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/sports-...86908-21317366/

I think you mis-heard. I thought the players were praying for Papal intervention to make this miracle of biblical proportions happen. Edited to correct a typing error.

The excuse... "In Italy we have 31 days in April. "

Let's respect the principle - innocent until proven guilty.