ObserverFromAfar

Why should that stop them trying?

The fans were miles from the pitch - ahh those would be the ones watching from behind the fence after being banned for protesting about the whole Livi thing and highlighting it was be an unsustainable dream. Admittedly, you have the mother of arguements - Meadowbank being a "draughty" stadium. You have made me see the light and I now realise that it is essential to have a football club in the SFL that for a period of 14 years continuously over spends, cannot pay it bills, and not attract fans to cover the bills, rather than have a well run club that lived within its means in a "draughty" stadium which didn't t rely on administration, that paid stadium rents on time (and not a year in arrears), paid players, didn't have creditors in the lurch. Mind you though. One thing that could have been done with all that "draughty"-ness. Erect a wind generator and get some electricity produced to supply Meadowbank Stadium and local businesses and residents. If only Livingston was as "draughty" as Meadowbank - maybe then Livingston could have built a wind farm, turned power supplier, and made Scottish Power a paying customer as opposed to a creditor!

Clap trap - Meadowbank were on the back foot because of a change in way the whole club was being run - from sensible and conservative governance to outlandish and personality driven mismanagement. The conclusion of this was the death and franchising out to LIvingston with the same regime at the helm - and the start of the financial problems which will be concluding very shortly. The fans did put a bid in to buy Bill Hunter's controlling stake in 1994 for approximately £80k - more he had put in 1-2 years earlier - and a significant improvement on the then current value of the club but this was turned down. Had that bid been successful, the organisation and financing of the club would have been corrected, and a return to a long term sustainable 3rd football club in Edinburgh would have ensued. Now that's ambition! However one may want to describe spening money you don't have and cannot pay back, it cannot be described as ambition. Now you mention the Meadowbank fans who followed the club upto 1995, and then went to watch LIvingston. This is an interesting subset that includes LLD, of whom I asked some questions of in post 3095 (http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=93208&view=findpost&p=3542882) but never got an answer. If LLD or anyone else is on.. can you try to answer the questions please? I would be interested in how you feel now as opposed to the 1993 to 1995 period. THe questions were... (You will) recognise the fall out and falling of standards and governance in the running of the operation from around 1991 to 1995, and the much much worsening of the financial mis-management in 14 years since 1995? If it has been run without scruples for the last 14 years, what has made you stick around with Livi and not walkaway? "If we can get rid of Massone and start again..." - why not walk away now and help out LIvingston Juniors, and implement the priniciples of the Trust's philosophy and business case there now? How many "start again" situations are needed? How much local and central government tax payers cash needs to be invested in Stadium and written off/refinanced? How many mores rounds of Administration and "debt write offs" need to be incurred by the businesses and suppliers to Livingston FC, beofre this experiment can stop? 1? 2? 3? 4? 5? 6? 7? What was foreseen by the Thistle Action Group, The Thistle fanzine and the vast majority of Meadowbank Thistle fans about the almost inevitable pipe-dream and consequential crash that may be on the verge of happening, that you did not see then, have not seen over the last 14 years, but now see today? Thanks.

Another set of interesting quotes..this time in The Scottish Sun.. http://www.thesun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/n...-to-resign.html Livi chief: I’ll quit... Investor: too late Italian lawyer Massone, 37 — who returned from a break in his homeland yesterday — said: “I am ready to stand down as chairman if it means the club survives.” But ex-Dumbarton chairman Neil Rankine — who has been linked with a buyout — said: “The more I look at the list of debts the less inclined I become to get involved. The club is in intensive care.” Another potential investor Andy Gemmell said: “I am not confident of a deal going through following the council action."

Rankine is speaking in the Scotsman from the innest Sanctum of Almondvale. http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/sport/Mass...--to.5421510.jp Rankine appears to be seeing opportunities, but is hedging the exposure and downside by ensuring this is shared across more people. Oh, and the money is needed in less than 13 days. MCL's has been hearing correctly. Seems a disagreement on approach - he considers Massone should have minority interest, but Massone says he should maintain his controlling interest (I thought it was a company acting for a consortium that held the majority shareholding?? Maybe I misunderstand the position, and the other people in the consortium have thrown the towel in..... wonder if Rankine has spoken to them too?) Rankine identifies that other "investors" needed - with big pockets and plenty of spare cash apparently. Interesting case study... if my reasing of the situation is correct, this could lead to a few big "personalities" on the board - no doubt leading to interesting, loud and robust debates and potential disagreements. Good to see the "Books" are being seen by Rankine. No doubt they are upto date, accurate and would pass all necessary tests. An extract from the Report: Rankine has already rejected Massone's offer of a 49 per cent shareholding but has instead advised the Livingston owner to rebuild his bridges with the community in an attempt to raise much-need finance. A 'Save Our Club' meeting has been arranged by Massone and Rankine for Saturday, inviting supporters groups and former Cowdenbeath chairman Gordon McDougall, who has also expressed an interest in a takeover, to meet to discuss ways of resolving the club's financial plight. However, Rankine, reckons Massone, much derided by supporters for his supervision of the club which has seen them rack up unmanageable arrears, should become a minority shareholder to appease fans who have lost all patience with him. Speaking last night from Almondvale, Rankine said: "Angelo needs to hold a public meeting with the fans and with anyone who could put money into the club. "Angelo has already offered me a 49 per cent stake in the club but I have said no. I have also told him he needs to take a minority shareholding and get other people involved in the club because he has something like 13 days to pay the council debt. "Angelo has said the club is not available but he will seek a Scottish partner. I would have preferred a consortium to come in and take over but Angelo seems likes he wants to hang on, but I've told him I would think it's best if he takes a minority shareholding and we get other people involved." Rankine, who is also aware of the £32,000 due to Scottish Power over an unpaid electricity bill, admits he will take time to consider whether to invest in Livingston. He said: "We need everyone to put their cards on the table and see if there is anyone to save it but I'm prepared to chip in. If I think I can't sort out the club's debts, I will walk away. "At the moment it's not an attractive proposition for me but if there is a chance it can be, I'm going to have a look at it."

There is commentary within this thread... http://www.livilions.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=16070

From what I remember from LiviLions, its underwraps incase its used by other parties other than the Trust to save the club. It was shown if you went allong to a pub in Livi on a couple of Monday nights in May. Apparently, unless you are on the Trust committe, it's unlikely you'll be any the wiser. At least that's my interpretation of the thread.

Oh, for goodness sake. This is ridiculous. Save Our Club - Meeting on 4th July at 12:00pm Angelo Massone and Neil Rankine would like to invite ALL Livingston fans, season ticket holders, shareholders, supporters organizations, trusts, Mr McDougall and members of the West Lothian Community who want to avoid the Club going into liquidation, to gather at the Almondvale Suite, Livingston Football Club, on Saturday 4th July at 12.00pm to "SAVE OUR CLUB" Let's all get together,in a democratic way, to discuss all the problems of the Club. Working together to find a solution that we can be proud of. Livingston Football Club is much, much, more than a Football Stadium, more than a professional Football Team, more than loyal supporters, it's OUR Club, OUR Pride, OUR Future, and it's OUR duty to protect when threatened. Like most Football Clubs, LFC has not been immune to pressures. We have endured many attempts to close us down, sidestepped many tactics to sabotage our games, constant threats of Administration, but through our Passion, Unity and Pride we have taken these challenges head on and battled on with sheer determination & commitment to survive. This is the greatest opportunity for ALL to unite, stand our ground and show our support and love for LFC. Please join us on Saturday and SAVE OUR CLUB. Where on earth do you start trying to analyse and disprove this absolute and utter drivel? It is sheer lunacy and shameless. I hope it is not an antagonistic move by the Rankine and Massone to create a scene. I see it as a double edged sword - turn up and either be wound up by what ever is spouted and create a "rift" between fans (hope this does not happen) OR do not turn up and Massone to say "no one supports the club.. to hell with it"... No win situation here for decency, I think. "We have endured many attempts to close us down, sidestepped many tactics to sabotage our games, constant threats of Administration, but through our Passion, Unity and Pride we have taken these challenges head on and battled on with sheer determination & commitment to survive." SO.. does this mean that the Club is saying that "sidestepped many tactics to sabotage our games" that there has been some SFL administrative conspiracy or SFL refereeing conspiracy against Livi? What clap trap - the side stepping that appears to have been done has been by the Football Club sidestepping many hundreds of thousands pounds it allegedly owes to creditors, councils and staff. And Rankine a fan of Livi? Com'on ... since when? On a practical note - can a public meeting be held in a venue without appropriate police licensing? Awful, awful, awful.

Always good to see pictures to help people understand a thread ... look away now Morton fans... (sorry) Edited to change some wording and correct the photos...and add health warning.

How bizarre.... Was the Nitespote notorious as an easy picking joint for middleaged men?

Maybe the invites could be extended to include Mr Blobby and Mr Keane for old times sakes?

MCL - did they all arrive together in the same car? who was driving? Was it Massone and the Jag, and was he using the forest of no parking tickets as some sort of black out to stop your camera getting pictures of him? Or do you think his new 2nd and 3rd bestest mates picked him up at the airport and gave him a lift? (I think his 1st best friend is that Ambassador who was doing the posting about the future being so bright on LIvilions last week)

Latest press coverage on the BBC at 15:30 ... Sheriff Officers serve notice.... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/t...ton/8128072.stm Tonsilitis... what is your considered judgement on this latest "news" please?!! "Livi on brink of administration Almondvale Stadium, Livingston Livingston owed rent for the use of Almondvale Stadium Sheriff officers have served notice on Livingston as the football club moved closer to going into administration because of unpaid rent. West Lothian Council had given the First Division club until midnight on Tuesday to pay around £300,000 for the use of Almondvale Stadium. "Some months ago we agreed a deadline with the club's owners," it stated. "That deadline has now passed and reluctantly we have now begun formal legal proceedings to recover the debt." It leaves the West Lothian club on the brink of entering administration for the second time in their 14-year history. "

That statement in full: News release Livingston FC update A West Lothian Council spokesperson said: " Several months ago we agreed a deadline of June 30 with the club's owners, by which we asked them to provide evidence that they can meet all outstanding obligations to the council. Unfortunately, the club's owners have failed to satisfy the terms of this agreement and we have reluctantly started formal legal procedures. "We have been flexible, patient and reasonable with regards to the club's plight and have given the club's owners ample opportunity to settle the outstanding issues. "Supporters can be assured that we have made numerous attempts to work with the club's owners at every stage of the process to help avoid this action. However, we have a duty to all residents and businesses in West Lothian to ensure debt is re-paid. "We would like to assure supporters that a secure future for senior football at Livingston remains our priority and we hope this action will ensure the good name of Livingston FC remains in tact for generations to come." Ged Nixon, from supporters group, Livi for Life, added: "The situation has to come to an end. We fully understand and support the action that West Lothian Council has taken. "In order to salvage any possible chance of retaining professional football within the West Lothian community, something had to give. As a group of supporters we to have exhausted all avenues to assist and communicate with the owners of the football club to no avail." Strange mish-mash of things here - a sop to the Livingston fans, but the need to ensure fairness across with all other WLC creditors and tax payers must be the priority surely (as Duncan Freemason has been saying for some time). No confirmation of what the action they have started atually is? Is the logical outcome of their course of action Administration or Liquidation? The Interim Liquidator conclusion has been well documented on here by Tonsilitis. So it looks as if WLC have not communicated that difficult message. Why on earth are a supporters group quoted on the release? Seems strange and out of place to me on this official council business - unless there is something about the relationship and understanding between WLC elected and employed officials, and this organisation I don't understand.

Tonsilitis... sorry to bother you, but could this be fulfilled by the "interim liquidator" regime referred to in this morning's Scotsman? What are the steps that need to be undertaken in this process?

The Scotsman has a very interesting report this morning- and reporting on some quite strong action from West Lothian Council http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/sport/Liqu...ton-.5416131.jp Extract: "It's thought the council has put sheriff officers on standby to this morning serve the First Division club notice of its intention to appoint an interim liquidator. If Massone failed to make the deadline, the controversial Italian would have 14 days to pay up in full or risk having Livingston taken out his hands in what would be a significant step towards the club being wound up." I am a bit ignorant on the "interim liquidation" process - can the experts on here shed somelight on this one please? Thanks!

Heaven help us, Duncan, if on 30 June 2010 he is manfully struggling on, dodging the creditors, and pulls out that excuse for not paying the rent accrued for the 09-10 season! Having said that, you are right - he will use a future event to avoid historic debts. Kind of like the current Star Trek movie, and Spock falling through the time warp whole thingy, resulting in young Spock getting words of wisdom from Old Man Spock. Except, with livi, old man Massone probably wouldn't have any worthy wisdom for younger Massone. Edited for some typos.. probably more to correct

If you are referring to Gretna Dylan, I think you are unfortunately incorrect with your observations that they both had a "bright future not so long ago". Both had dillusional outlooks based on tricksters specialising in short term use of smoke and mirrors. In the medium and long term, the mirrors lose their reflection and the smoke machine has run out. And now everyone should be able to see there is nothing there, and the deluded angry that they have been made fools of. Edited to correct typing error...

Demolition Derby Gordon announces his "vision" if he were to "own" the shambles. BBC has the latest... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/t...ton/8121913.stm Alec Cleland and Gary Bollan to be brought in as coaches. obviously the current staff (suspended / unsuspended) would have to be dealt with first no doubt. Disappointing no mention of a big dirt track being built or even a huge figure of 8 right across the pitch. That may be in the next announcement.

Based on the photograph on your avator, I presume you followed Meadowbank Thistle and recognise the fall out and falling of standards and governance in the running of the operation from around 1991 to 1995, and the much much worsening of the financial mis-management in 14 years since 1995? If it has been run without scruples for the last 14 years, what has made you stick around with Livi and not walkaway? "If we can get rid of Massone and start again..." - why not walk away now and help out LIvingston Juniors, and implement the priniciples of the Trust's philosophy and business case there now? How many "start again" situations are needed? How much local and central government tax payers cash needs to be invested in Stadium and written off/refinanced? How many mores rounds of Administration and "debt write offs" need to be incurred by the businesses and suppliers to Livingston FC, beofre this experiment can stop? 1? 2? 3? 4? 5? 6? 7? What was foreseen by the Thistle Action Group, The Thistle fanzine and the vast majority of Meadowbank Thistle fans about the almost inevitable pipe-dream and consequential crash that may be on the verge of happening, that you did not see then, have not seen over the last 14 years, but now see today?

And now, the main sponsor has had enough and called off their sponsorship deal. http://www.livingstonfc.co.uk/news/240709%...nnouncement.pdf

Another "amusing" insight on livinews.co.uk.. http://livinews.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/s...ny-for-massone/ If true, who actually owns this car, who pays for it (personally by Massone, or through some account somewhere) and how is it paid for (rent/paid in full up front (not likely I assume)? Looks like the outstanding fines are equivalent to a months rent on the town house. Maybe a donation bucket or paypal account could be set up for his trabvel funds. It would be better to get him a bus ticket - £77 for Edinburgh to Livingston for a month. http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/scotland/s.../first4week.php Though I don't expect that would include a bus connection for his weekly airport trips. Could we perhaps get some P&B reasers to volunteer to do the airport runs and get some good stories from him in return? I'll see if we can get a rota set-up. Edited to remove a rogue "and"

Remember this from Massone a couple of weeks back... "On 12th June, there will be an important legal hearing, in which this Board will seek the sum of approximately £600K from Pearse Flynn. In this specific case, the Board claims to have paid £600K more than the undertaken obligations as per purchase agreement during the takeover. The Board and Angelo Massone, particularly agreed, although under no legal responsibility, to pay those aged creditors so that Livingston FC would not disappear." Anyone heard anything about today's "important legal hearing"??? Edited to indent the quote...

More blurring of identities at Livingston... latest idea is a a "Business Trust Board" http://www.livingstonfc.co.uk/news_100609_1.php. The livi website proclaims: "Due to interest shown from various sources in the business community of West Lothian,Livingston Football Club would like to propose the forming of a new “Business Trust Board” The success of LFC depends on having a variety of individuals who can contribute in different ways and share the desire to see our Club reach new heights. Candidates for the “Business Trust Board” would be selected from the list of top sponsors of the Club and invited to become members They would act as official representatives of the Club and would also be invited to review the overall performance of the Club including the financial resources. Monthly Board Meetings will also be expected." Now, to the uneducated observer such as myself, the naming causes direct confusion with the fan's "Trust" board, and sounds like a bizarre concept of the owners' favourite sponsors being invited to apply to be on this so called board to run their eye's over the "books" and provide input on where things could be done better - e.g. maybe pay bills on time, pay wages on time, don't spend money you don't have, oh dear the cash flow position isn't too good - why not have some buckets at reception to get some money in, why not move to a smaller house etc etc. Does anyone remeber the Troubleshooter series on BBC in the early 90's with the late Sir John Harvey Jones, where he went round in his volvo estate to some toubled businesses and invariably told the owners/cheif executives "You are doing what... ha ha ha", recommended they or their managers had to go to give the business a chance to survive? Don't know what he would make of this lot.

IF it occurs (highly unlikely) it would interesting to find out where the money starts too! Where it ends will be just as intriguing. Whilst sums of £250k may be mentioned, and speculated upon, and promoted to talk up the price, the chances are that this will be a maximum capped price with so many caveats, that the deal will be constructed so that Livi will have little chance of ever seeing that amount of money ever, let alone by mid-week. His agent, Darren Jackson I believe, will make sure that no deal is rushed into for the sake of it. NO need to rush the deal for the player's sake. What can be saved in a transfer fee between clubs can be paid as a signing on fee to a player.