cmontheloknow
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Posts posted by cmontheloknow
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57 minutes ago, Stag Nation said:
Here in England, the authorities have decided that "elite" clubs have to play behind closed doors, but "non-elite" clubs can let the fans in. This led to a bizarre situation locally at the weekend, where the non-elite Corinthian Casuals were at home to Dulwich Hamlet, who (bizarrely) are classed as elite. 600 crowd, but visiting supporters banned!
yet the traffic light system leaked today suggests a ban incoming on non professional sport.
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To be fair to Mulraney he did mention the EoS and WoS by name on Radio Scotland a week or so back. However if say 10 million is found down the back of Nicola's sofa next week, I would expect to see SPFL clubs get the lion's share. The scraps to be shared among 200 non leaguers. As a best case scenario.
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bottom line would seem to be that in the order of priorities that the powers that be have, fans at lower league games is somewhere alongside seethrough PPE for strippers.
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And an extended arm / brolly combo, waved menacingly, is a perfectly good means of demonstrating what 2m social distancing is, for those that don't quite get it.
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How are EoS clubs planning to fund paying players? For a few this will be a ballbuster.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54408588
Covid & Scottish football: Professor Jason Leitch answers key questions
The opening two months of the Scottish football season have been riven with confusion, dismay, and apparent inconsistencies as the game wrestles with life in the time of Covid-19.
In an attempt to bring some sort of clarity, BBC Scotland spoke to national clinical director Professor Jason Leitch to try and debunk some mistruths, clarify grey areas, and challenge some of those anomalies...
Are you content the football protocols are working?
Plans put in place to enable football to return in June have, for the most part, worked. Six of the 12 Scottish Premiership clubs have had players or staff self-isolate but widespread outbreaks had been avoided until six positive tests were returned by Kilmarnock last week.
"I think the sector has done a great job. There have been positive cases in elite football - as there have been in other sectors - because this is a cunning virus. It finds its way in.
"The single most important tool we have for now is human behaviour so keeping yourself apart from other households is the biggest thing you can do. That's whether you're Kilmarnock's goalkeeper, St Mirren's centre-half or a waitress in a pub.
"Sport in the main have done that really well. Everything I've seen is exemplary."
Why were Kilmarnock's squad told to self-isolate?
The entire Kilmarnock squad is self-isolating for 14 days after six positive tests in the past week and the club could face sanctions if they are found to have breached Covid protocols.
But Aberdeen and St Mirren did not have to do likewise despite returning more than one positive test. What is the difference?
"Kilmarnock is a workplace outbreak. The other high-profile ones in football were individuals - flew to Spain, went to hospitality and weren't distanced.
"If it was a call centre, test and protect go in and get them to talk us through their day, and that happens with every health board. At a football club we'd ask thing like where they sat in the dressing room, on the bus, where they ate.
"After that, the incident management team make a judgement based on the evidence about the risk to others and on this occasion they decided it was significant enough to ask them to self-isolate.
"Why are Kilmarnock self-isolating but St Mirren didn't have to? St Mirren could evidence that they'd contained it, but it is also a timing thing. With any positive test, people are asked to detail their movements in the 48 hours before they first started to notice symptoms.
"If they were not mixing with the squad in that time, the risk of transmission is less."
Does not having testing in lower leagues worry you?
SPFL sides in the Championship, League 1 and League 2 will begin their seasons this week in the League Cup group stages. As it stands, those teams need only test for Covid-19 in the days before playing Premiership opposition.
"There is risk and we hope clubs will take that very seriously. We've brought back contact sports outside for adults - five-a-side football, for example - and we've not seen big outbreaks there so I'm confident if we do it right, we can do it safely, but it won't be risk free."
If lower-league players don't have to test, why do Premiership ones?
Premiership teams have been testing either once or twice a week since returning to training in June. But if lower-league players do not have to take tests, do their top-flight equivalents need to continue doing so?
"There is a logical argument to say not to bother but we think testing adds another layer of protection and the Joint Response Group agree, although I understand there are economic considerations and we shouldn't forget those.
"But that extra layer at the elite end is the right thing to do, I think, as long as we can do it as it gives them more chance of completing their seasons because you can isolate people out as you need to. And it's better to know that than not, and the virus spread unnoticed."
Lower-league players have to arrive and leave in their kit. Why is that?
The current protocol state that players outside the top flight cannot shower after training or matches and - like the rest of the population - should not share cars. Some have noted that spending several hours in wet clothes while driving long-distances at night can also be perilous to a player's health...
"If everyone had their own individual shower and it was cleaned between each use, there's pretty much no risk. But the challenge is that when you go down the leagues, the facilities aren't quite as good sometimes. It's about trying to mitigate risk as always.
"We think it's probably about right that we ask kids to arrive in their gear and go home and shower and it's about right that Premiership players can shower given the set-ups at those clubs. But somewhere in the middle is a sweet spot.
"It goes to the question everybody asks... why can I do this, but not that? The fundamental answer is population health. The risk to you of doing something might be minimal to you, but the more people do it, you add risk on top of risk on top of risk.
"That's a real communication challenge for us around football stadiums v pubs or soft plays v cinemas."
Okay, so why are cinemas open when football stadiums are not?
Two successful test events in September, with 300 fans at Premiership matches in Aberdeen and Dingwall, have yet to be repeated, with a pause put on any further games by First Minister Nicola Sturgeon. Meanwhile, cinemas are open to a limited number of customers.
All of these decisions are based on four 'harms' - the harm caused by Covid directly; the harm caused to other parts of the health service as a result; the social harm on things such as people's mental health; and the economic harm. The chief advisors for each give that advice to the First Minister and the cabinet and they make the decisions.
"With all this stuff, there's not a straightforward answer. Cinemas are very small numbers, very distanced, there's not a public transport, or policing problem, there's not people going to pubs before and after. But it's not an exact science. You can't say cinemas are safer than football stadiums.
"As you open things, there will be anomalies. You can rationalise them but fundamentally it's about the fact you can't have everything.
"But at some level you have to make choices. If the bucket of risk if full, you can't put more in it. If the bucket of risk is half empty, you can think 'right, what is the next thing to do?'. Is it soft play for kids? Is it nightclubs for students? You can't put both in the bucket at the same time."
But why is football behind other things is getting into that bucket?
Speaking to BBC Scotland on Saturday, SPFL chief executive Neil Doncaster said that "it often feels football does not get a fair rub of the green" and pointed to indoor venues such as the Royal Albert Hall being allowed to admit 57% of capacity. He added: "Anybody who tells me that is not a political choice, I'm sorry I don't accept that."
"My argument would be that football got into the bucket pretty early on. What it didn't get was crowds.
"But let's be very clear, football got very special privileges to go back before hosts of other sectors. Most people are still working from home as default. Football is open, people are at work, so they got in the bucket but they didn't get everything they wanted and are pushing for now.
"I completely get the angst about crowds and people saying they've gone to Alloa every second week for their whole life and there's no risk because they'll walk there and socially distance. It really hurts me to not allow that but we have to minimise the risk."
Could we see fans back at smaller clubs first?
The test events were considered a success. People arrived, got to their seats, were distanced, left safely and were dispersed from the stadium. Professor Leitch says he looks forward to seeing further pilots, and hints that talks had taken place about having small numbers of crowds at lower-league games.
"I'm very mindful of the smaller clubs who could put together pretty strong mitigation to have small, distanced, local crowds and keep the vulnerable away. That will come back and I am an advocate for that but it's about timing.
"We haven't had that discussion fully yet with the SPFL and Scottish FA. Should they let Annan, for example, have crowds before Rangers and Celtic? There are arguments in both directions and at some point we'll trigger that but not yet, because we're still too worried about the virus."
How is the relationship between football and the authorities?
Doncaster and Scottish FA vice-president Mike Mulraney were vocal on Saturday in their belief that preventing fans returning is "political rather than clinical". So is there tension between them and the authorities? And do the latter feel like they are being strong-armed?
"The relationships are pretty good. We've got different jobs and come at it from a different angle. But so does the hospitality sector and the guy who runs Edinburgh Airport.
"It's never bad-tempered or unhappy; it's constructive. And fundamentally everybody wants the same thing. They want it slightly quicker than we think it's safe to do so but that's what I would do if I was in their seat.
"It's doesn't feel like a fight. It feels like they understand. The minister for sport and I are sports fans. Sometimes we come across as the bad guys because we are the ones slowing it down but we're doing our best to help them.
"Sports rhetoric is always turned up to 11 and, unlike other sectors, they've got wall-to-wall coverage. I'm okay with it as long as we occasionally get to give our version of the truth. People are big enough to make up their own minds about what we're saying and why we're saying it."
What news should we expect on Tuesday?
Doncaster is due to meet with sports minister Joe Fitzpatrick on Monday, and Tuesday marks the three-week review date for the pause on test events and fans returning. Will the First Minister relax the restrictions at all?
"A number of things have happened since then so I wouldn't expect any change for a few weeks. The most likely outcome will be "we'll look again in three weeks". But I'm the advisor, not the decision-maker."
Do you believe we will see stadiums at full capacity this season?
It is now over six months since a crowd bigger than 300 fans watched a football match in Scotland. Will that change in the next six months?
"I don't think we'll see full capacity stadiums this season. I think we'll see crowds before next summer but not full stadiums, I don't think."
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Good interview with Glens boss Willie Harvey.
Rutherglen boss: Clubs are in danger of folding and players may have to play for free
Glens gaffer Willie Harvey fears for the future as uncertainty surrounds various issues in the West of Scotland League.
Rutherglen Glencairn boss Willie Harvey has warned that clubs are in danger of folding if fans aren’t allowed back in this season – and players may have to play for free to keep them alive.
The West of Scotland League has been dealt a couple of setbacks in recent weeks with the Scottish Government further delaying the return of fans to stadiums to no earlier than October 5 and, following a survey of all league clubs, the kick-off for the new season will be October 24 at the earliest.
It leaves clubs like Glens in limbo and Harvey has also voiced concerns that players who find themselves unable to get a regular game for clubs might just walk away, which brings with it its own set of problems.
The Glens boss said: “It’s going to be one of those situations where the players decide what happens.
“These players are all contracted, and if the money’s not there to pay them then they don’t need to play, because we’re not honouring their contracts, which then become null and void.
“The big question is, if fans aren’t allowed in, you need to go back to the players and ask ‘are you willing to play without money’ for a certain period of time, until such times as things are available.
“It is difficult because players are going to be out of expenses, it’s going to cost them for travelling to and from games and during the week for training.
“I know for a fact that some guys actually give up their overtime because they train, so financially it becomes a big question of what they’re willing to do, and what they’re not willing to do.
“As a club, nobody will have a leg to stand on, and it will be the same for everyone so it’s not as if it’s ‘poor Glencairn’ or ‘poor Cambuslang’ – it’s poor everybody.”
He added: “I think it’s a certainty that some clubs might fold. You have other expenses – running costs, electricity, gas, water bills, and things like that, rates and upkeep, because you still need to keep the park in some sort of condition where you can play.
“You’re still going to have expenditure, and where is the money coming from for that?
“It’s a problem for the foreseeable future, it’s going to be one of those situations where everybody is going to be in the same boat, and we’re really, really worried – everybody’s worried
in the game. Not having fans in definitely affects us.”
Harvey reckons clubs might just decide not to play, and says league bosses then potentially have a difficult decision to make. He said: “It’s not the junior game anymore, it’s the West of Scotland League and you can’t be forced to play the games.
“At the end of the day if the West of Scotland League say we’re going to start, then several clubs say ‘we’ll not be in it’ what do they do the following season when crowds are back?
“Are you allowed back in it then, or do they turn around and say you need to go to the bottom division and start there?
“Can you imagine somebody like Pollok or Auchinleck being told they have to go back to the bottom to start again – never going to happen.
“The problem is, these are the kinds of clubs that will probably be able to start playing, because they will have some sort of finance there and might be able to pay some amount to players.
“We’ll be in a position where we just need to suck it and see.
“If they say the league is starting then it’s going to be down to the players and we’ll say ‘well, look, it’s up to you’.
“If you’re there to play you play, if you don’t then you don’t. But then you’ve got players who are not being picked, so it becomes a lot easier to walk away.
“All of a sudden your squad is depleted and you’ve not got enough players to cover every game.”
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nothing at all tbh
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You're talking a quarter of that to give the non-leaguers a grand each. Better than a dose of covid but not going to go too far.
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And may the dire rural broadband d/l speeds make it unwatchable for the greying faithful in our far-flung shires.
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18 minutes ago, jimbaxters said:
4. clubs set up gofund me with regular fans making regular donations
Maybe a bit too radical for smaller clubs with aging fanbase but it does have potential, especially if there is a committee member who can film the games either live or posting to the website after the match. It's not the same, but then nothing is just now.
I guess that's a bit of an extention to the donateaticket concept and perhaps a way forward. I have paid my usual PFC membership which is more than all the gate money could be and I am sure most other members have done too. But getting the more casual fan to donate is the toughy.
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7 minutes ago, jimbaxters said:
Although this is correct, there is also an argument to say that mothballing the season will mean the end of some players careers either due to age or physical condition. In this case, if the players want to play for free and are willing to put up with the rules imposed, then that should be encouraged.
I suppose in interim there is nothing to stop those players going amateur if SFA granted some sort of one off dispensation that didn't annul current contracts and allowed them to play SAFA. One issue is clubs being able to afford to play / pay them without fans, another the interruptions due to break outs of covid. The SAFA are getting underway and if they can do it and are happy to do it with no access to changing rooms then good on them - but clubs like our own cannot magic up the £££ for a six figure wage bill from goodwill.
If the season is a no go there are a few options that I can see:
1. clubs continue to play friendlies with players getting expenses only ideally
2. clubs can free players on loan in some way shape or form to go SAFA for the timebeing
3. clubs shut down completely until a future date
The current path of kicking off in 3 / 4 weeks time seems insanity for any semi pro outfit - without subsidy and I am not seeing it coming.
Not sure we can ask the contracted professionals to play for free for competitive games - as they're due minimum wage.
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With players, officials and committees, you could have upwards of 60 different workplaces converging for a few hours. The season with or without fans is going to be carnage. Even the full-timers cannot get it right.
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A few games covid off today - Whitletts as announced yesterday, plus Rossvale as above being rearranged to be a Maryhill fixture. Meadow off due to one of their committee testing positive. Lanark v Lesmamagow off with the noe saying 'virus going nowhere' or words to that effect.
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1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:
It seems the rest getting tested is a club move.
https://www.whitlettsvictoria.com/item.php?pg=news&pd=1002&it=1040
Aye I know but if you're not a key worker and not showing symptoms you can't get a test - you have to self-isolate if asked to do so. I am not sure low ranking semi pro footballers should fraudulently be adding to the pressure on the system unless their job requires. Just my opinion! I have been tested myself but 1. had symptoms and 2. am a level 3 key worker.
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Whitletts have had a player test positive and going by headline everyone else advised to take a test. I thought it was key workers only unless showing symptoms? Everyone else into 14 day self isolation if identified as close contacts.
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The Lochgelly stock cars are not allowed walk in punters any more. Wonder why?
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There is a lot of comparing apples and oranges.
"Why are we shut but the pubs are open?"
Pubs & restaurants shouldn't be opened but it is too costly to the economy for them not to be.
"Why did East Stirlingshire have their squad go into 14 days self isolation when the SPFL Premiership clubs play on as normal with only those positive affected? We are the same!"
The SPFL Premiership players are regularly tested on a private basis and are living in a bubble. Joe Bloggs who plays for £80 a week at whoever is treated as every other employee in the country outwith elite sport. Anyone in my work who is within 2m of a positive case for more than 15mins goes into a fortnight of self-isolation. It has happened. And it's what has happened to the Shire.
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Informative post from Larkhall Thistle on Facebook today:
Thought it was time we posted an update on the current situation at the club.Clubs were given permission supposedly after they had submitted the proper paperwork to say that they met all the required protocols and guidelines to start training.Lets just say as newspaper photos have proved many clubs didn't or couldn't meet the criteria but started training in all sorts of places. We have been training for roughly 8 -9 weeks and apart from the last two weeks when the light faded the players have used Gasworks Park where we as a club could control everything in a secure environment. The down side is that the park has suffered real damage and this coupled to a disease called red thread which resulted in many bare patches on the grass . We took advice and have treated the pitch accordingly which was not cheap. All this has resulted in a lot of extra work for Malcolm and Davy who look after the ground and the surrounds and I as someone who prior to his illness knew how time consuming and sometimes exasperating it could be.Again after doing a risk assessment which was accepted by the authorities we were then give permission to play friendlies at Gasworks Park . To date we have played two drawing one and winning one. We have now moved to our normal venue for training in the dark nights Dalzell and have played two friendlies there losing both. As we were classed as the home team because we booked the referee we also had to supply a risk assessment for Dalzell.We have had a variety of possible indicative start dates and information and we have just received the latest details of a survey all clubs were asked to complete and the answers are below.First thing to note of the 67 clubs in the set up only 55 replied - unbelievable.Question about the start date 49.1% for October 10th. same for October 31st.FANS- would your club support return without fans YES 29.1% NO 70.9 %.IF we do start how long could your club continue without this associated income9.1 % could last the season 70.5 % could only last 4 weeks. Can't understand why any club would not answer this question.CHANGING FACILITIES - if these became allowable would your facilities meet the 2 metre social distancing. 52.7 % YES 47.3 % NOWe answered no to this question as you have a minimum of 18 players plus coaching staff in the dressing room and ours doesn't measure up nor does the shower area.Do you have access to supplementary facilities like a leisure centre or school.Yes 36.4 % NO 63.6%.PLAYERS - Are your players willing to return home from a game without showers or changing facilities YES 47.27% NO 50.91% mixed response from played within club 1.82%. Remember folks players arrive at ground ready to play and whilst some clubs like ourselves would be able to use the enclosure to house both teams and the officials socially distanced if it is raining this is not the case for every club . Our players to a man have indicated they would be willing to play under these restrictions.Still an awful lot of work and planning needed by all clubs and the league who have now said earliest start date would be 24th. October to allow time for the SFA/Scottish Government to have discussions on a possible financial package .Be interesting to see what develops if anything.As far as our own direct financial situation is at the moment we as a club have lost all our income streams. Our last home gate income was on the 12th. February and our other two main income sources the Accumulator and other fundraising weekly events stopped when lockdown set in and as they are mainly football related with the total number of games played over a weekend being a crucial part of how they operate this gives us a problem as regards start up.We have also lost income from special nights and private bookings in the clubhouse lounge. Unfortunately unlike some clubs as we own the ground so although we have no games to gain income there are fixed costs such as insurance , water rates, electricity plus building and ground maintenance costs that have still to be met.We have already contacted our season ticketholders to offer a £50 club membership for adults and a £25 one for senior citizens mainly in the beginning to help us should games with spectators not become a reality and the response has been overwhelming and the committee would like to record our appreciation. .We will be writing to thank everyone individually for their contributions.Should anyone reading this post wish to take out a membership to help the club please contact Hugh Kerr on 07746875347 or message this page for further details.Stay safe folks we are still very much in difficult times for us all.13 -
Thread starter TFW took quite unwell this week and had a major op - a few posts on Facebook about this - wishing him all the very best.
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1 minute ago, Ginaro said:
Can you do that with any other activity, event, or shop/business?
I guess they'll have some sort of public liability insurance should it happen and they're actively sanitising surfaces / discouraging unnecessary touching.
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3 minutes ago, Ginaro said:
But the numbers make a difference because clearly with more people it's more likely they will be closer together. The first picture you posted was of a 417 crowd inside a 2,000 capacity ground (21%). Which is well above what anyone on here has been calling for (10%) to be allowed in to begin with. Anything over 150 - basically half the amount of the distance around the spectator barrier - and then it becomes more complicated as you've got to have raised standing areas.
There's a Sky report on Hendon, who I think are limited to 600 (30%): https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/12084242/efl-could-replicate-fan-protocols-from-grassroots
This tweet shows a more sparse 14% crowd:
But people still group together - unless it's a crowd of socially awkward people, they will be with their mates.
Even the one you link shows that. Very few are on their own, or even masked. Who enforces it? And if I go to a game, touch an unsantised barrier and catch covid can I sue the club for not keeping me safe?
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5 hours ago, Sancho Panza said:
Can you meet the 2m social guidance in changing rooms ?- yes 52.7%
do you have supplementary facilities ?- no 63.6%
would you players be willing to forego changing/washing ?-no 51%
remember the dirty dozen who never bothered to vote.
Would suggest a few people filling in the survey might need to consider what 2m actually is!
/https://specials-images.forbesimg.com/imageserve/67f64ae4dab34f32a65223af26887ba0/0x0.jpg)
a flipping big keeper!
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7 hours ago, lithgierose said:
That's not central Park afaia
ah ok someone said stock cars in Fife and just assumed.
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in West of Scotland Football League
Posted
Better examples being Bo'ness, Linlithgow, EK and Kelty.