Shadow Play

At least Hooly turned up I suppose. So many United fans only thought of themselves that night and stayed at home. Not interested in trying to help their club. Says it all really.

Sorry G Man but United fans never tired of talking about how bad Dundee were when we were the poorer team playing in the lower league. I say we should never tire of reminding ourselves that United have gone "from European nights to promotion fights (via the play offs)". Actually that would make a pretty good banner for them this season when their wee protests start again.

Tom Duthie in today's Tele praising the large support United took to Easter Road. That would be the same support that abandoned their team in their hour of need. Monday 2nd May 2016, United fighting for their Premiership survival, the match is taking place 100 yards from Tannadice, and they can't even sell out the Shankly! To add to that they decide that was the best night to display the "from European nights to relegation fights" banners. Easy to support your team when your winning most games, albeit against low league opposition. If Duthie or any United fan that bangs on about United having a better / bigger support wants to know what it is to have a support worthy of praise they should look no further than the Deefiant season!

No three week break is another reason United fans will be giving it big as a reason they are happy to be in the Championship. Do you remember when they were relegated but couldn't quite come to terms with it and excuses they gave as to why they weren't really that bothered? 1) We'll get cheaper season tickets (Stevie made sure that didn't happen). 2) We'll get to visit grounds we've not been to. 3) We'll win more games. The only good reasons I could see from their point of view that going into the Championship would bring were they wouldn't get beaten by Dundee in the league and they wouldn't have to boycott going to away games. They did boycott Beautiful Monday didn't they?

Loving the DFC badges painted on the grass around the sides of the pitch. Please reassure me these are new and haven't been there for weeks / months without me noticing.

Dee Man, after the season they had did anyone actually believe that Hemmings and Stewart were going to remain at Dens? Especially when you consider the £250k clause for Hemmings and the fact Stewart was in the last year of his contract. If Hartley didn't know what was happening with both of them then that is poor. The board and Hartley should have been liaising a lot closer about the situation. Your last point is on the other hand 100% correct!

Trouble is it's not just one bad summer though is it? I think we all agree that most of the summer signings are not good enough or Hartley is not getting enough out of them. if you look at the squad (ignoring players that have come through the youth squad) you are left with the likes of: Ross - will he ever become a regular first choice again? Loy - will he ever become a regular first choice? Low - will he ever play? He was injury prone at Aberdeen, so it was a big gamble signing him, especially on a 3 year deal. Holt - was he worth spending big to buy? Nothing cheaper and better on the market? Mitchell - are we really saying he is good enough to go through a whole top flight season as number 1 keeper? With the exception of Holt, you have to assume Hartley doesn't rate any of the above highly enough to get a game. All his signings. By the way, I'm not saying Hartley should be sacked but I think it would be negligent of the board not to have some sort of contingency plan lined up.

Haha. What if I had said it was ALMOST a reasonably good offer for Stewart?

It's fact that there is a set budget each season for playing staff is it not? I personally think it is fair to assume that Hartley will have at least some knowledge as to what wages are being demanded by a potential new recruit for the following reason: If I was the manager and told I only had £250,000 of new money (assuming players could not be sold on) to spend on new recruits and I knew I had to bring in at least 5 players to improve the squad I would surely have to known what wages any potential new recruit was requesting. If for example St johnstone's Paul Paton (keeping it interesting for Random Guy!) was one of my targets I may be happy that he eats up (no pun intended) one tenth of my £250,000 budget. If on the other hand Paton demanded £200,000 I would know I would have very little to play with for the further 4 new recruits I thought were essential to strengthen the squad and I would presumably work out that £200,000 is not value for money. I know the above is oversimplifying it but surely it surely makes sense. It does to me at least but what do I know about being a football manager? I would also add that as manager it would be fair to assume I may not be privy to all the clauses in a contract eg sell on clauses etc, etc.

Not sure they could have done that much more. They seem to have at least set the club on the road to a proper financial structure (could all change if we get relegated though) I know we don't like to think about financial matters but if truth be told it's a policy that has suited St Johnstone very well. As I understand it the board make available a set amount for players each season and Hartley is allowed to spend it as he sees fit with very little interference from the board. Has Hartley spent too much on the wages of a few players that just aren't giving enough? Hately's wages wont be cheap for example. Gadz and Kerr show better than just about any other players of any club I can think of that you don't have to pay big wages to get a big effort every game! Nelms in particular places a lot of trust in Hartley. Will that trust continue?

I don't think anyone was in any doubt that Stewart and and Hemnings would be sold. Stewart because the offer was a reasonably good one and Hemmings because of the £250k clause! That then leaves Hartley knowing he had to get attacking replacements. When they signed did ANYONE think we signings Yordi, Duffy or Williams were anywhere near good enough? Did ANYONE think Wighton or El Bak were ready to play week in week out? Did ANYONE think Loy was good enough? That only leaves Haber. He clearly fits the bill for the big punt up the park (I personally don't mind that as long as we get the points) but Hartley himself has repeated numerous times he has (should now definitely read had) a style of play he likes to deploy. If truth be told Hartley's signings have fallen well short of the required standards. Too many failed experiments which have left us with a weak first team and an even weaker squad. That's my thoughts on the attacking situation. I think there is almost enough quality in the midfield and defence, just! Got to agree about Hately. Flatters to deceive. His tackle against Patterson (I think) from Hearts in front of the Derry just about sums him up!

A Harkins type player and a Hemmings type player.

I think what's hurting you the most is that despite being the more succesful team in the city over these years you have only just managed to equal Dundee's record of trophies. The way you go on you would have thought you'd have won, well, at least one more trophy! How's the protests to get rid of Thompson going by the way? Thought he was looking to sell the club?

Remember, he was playing two leagues below where is is now. Given that he is a flair player joining a team that is not exactly firing on all cylinders that makes it doubly difficult to settle in. I would suggest he will need close to a season just to to settle in so a three year contract makes sense to me. There are a few other signings I would be questioning before El Bak. I understand your frustration though. We are all desperate for someone to light up this season. Now that he's back hopefully O'Hara can be that man.

Low also baited Demel into a sending off at Dens, so it hasn't been a complete waste of a 3 year contract.

Well at least we know that Kerr's not going to United then if it involves paying a £25,000 fee!

Low's last year at Aberdeen saw him make less than a dozen appearances due to injury, so signing him was always going to be a gamble. A gamble that unfortunately doesn't look like paying off. Hartley's two pre-season contract signings before Low were Loy and Meggatt, so not Hartley's greatest trio of signings.

Or, to look at it another way. Maybe the board feels Hartley was given enough of a budget in the last transfer window to last the season. Anyone know, roughly, what the teams around us budgets are like compared to Dundee's budget?

A big well done to the Dunee players and staff at the calendar signing event at Dens tonight. My son was delighted to get their autographs and photos. I know their attitude have been questioned at times this season but Yordi and Bain seemed very relaxed and happy. Special mention to McPake. A true gentleman and a real credit to the club.

Dundee supporting - On the successful side (Dundee's only top flight club). Brexit voting - On the successful the side. Doanld Trump fan - On the successful side. This Dee Boy sounds like he picks winners.

I said last week that when he replaced Vincent against ICT the team looked a lot poorer. When defending Williams seems to stand crouched forward, wait for the attacking player to make a move and when the attacking player does make a move he simply lets them past him. Maybe he's worried he'd have to put in a tackle for the team if he caught up with them! I can't comment on his attacking abilities because he hasn't done any of that since arriving! Genuinely never seen him have a good game since he joined. He doesn't look interested if you ask me. There is no way he is going to make the grade. Given a (presumably expensive) three year contract as well.

Louis, to add to the hilarity I'm fairly sure it was only a week or two ago that Tom Duthie was suggesting that Fraser was an outstanding player that should stay at Tannadice for a further season after this one before thinking of a big money move. This of course primarily based on his performances in the second tier of Scotiish football! Don't forget the hype!

Oh dear, this is becoming a little tedious but it's only fair I remind you that Dundee have also won a top flight league title at the home of (what is now since your relegation at Dens) our nearest Premiership rival. So yes, we are all aware what success is. Like I said before five major trophies to each club, including one top flight league title to each club but at the end of the day that's all history. The here and the now is that Dundee are in the top tier of Scottish football whereas United are in the second tier of Scottish football. No more debate required really.

I assumed it was a rhetorical question, hence my reply. Still, glad to see your still putting a good spin on what your Chairman has done for your club of late.

You don't half like like to narrow down the number of years under discussion to suit your needs. Bottom line is United have won five major trophies and Dundee have won five major trophies. If I were in your position what would annoy me more than whatever Dundee fans are posting on a Dundee thread is the fact that United could have easily surpassed five trophies if they hadn't bottled so many cup finals. Oh, and I would be far from happy that United are on the 2nd tier of Scotiish football and that the Chairman that guided you there is still in charge. Still, each to their own I suppose.