Che Dail
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Posts posted by Che Dail
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2 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:
But it's only a silly question because you're making a silly point. None of the data you're providing is anywhere near suggesting that B teams make players better than they would be without B teams. Not that it's not proving it, it's not even getting anywhere close to supporting it.
Your trawling of player data websites is proving absolutely nothing. Some very good players played for B teams, some very good players didn't. What on Earth are you actually trying to prove?
That there's nothing wrong with a 'blended' approach to player development.
B-Teams have their place, alongside other methods.
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Just now, Gordon EF said:
Well my point is obviously that you can't do it.
Well if you ask a silly question you get a silly answer:
He's currently a 'goldie' foil Match Attax card, but if hadn't played in a B Team, he might just be a plain card, like Harry Kane.
That ok for you?
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2 minutes ago, Burnieman said:
If you speak to former players, they'll tell you that the reserve league of old was exactly the type of environment that helped develop them, men against boys so to speak, competitive matches week in and week out. A mix of fringe players, first team players coming back from injury, and young players taking the next rung of the ladder. Every club had one. Premier Reserve League, Reserve League West, Reserve League East etc.
Not every club can run a B team in the Pyramid, and a reserve league does not block proper clubs from moving up and down the Pyramid (imagine being edged out of promotion by Livingston B).
However, what a proper reserve league provides is little different to a B team playing Gretna, in fact it's probably better.
There is absolutely no need for them (only two exist) if we have a proper reserve and loan system. Make the step up to reserve football and then if needed, a loan out to another club.
As you know there are plenty former players at the top level of the game who advocate B-Teams... Sure plenty current players will too, since it formed part of their development.
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1 minute ago, Gordon EF said:
I really have no idea if you're a shit troll or just slow on the uptake. But just how much different do you think those 12 B team appearances made to Killian Mbappe? Do you think he'd be a significantly worse player without them? And if so, by how much?
And how would you like me to quantify a response to this? Using Match Attax card scoring system?
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3 minutes ago, Marten said:
Well, no wonder!
To most observers, the EoS league this season has been phenomenal - what has been achieved in such a short space of time, I'd say, is well above and beyond what any club could have expected before moving across from the Junior grade.
Yes - there needs to be greater movement between the EoS / WoS and Lowland League - but as things stands that's wholly outwith the control of the leagues below it - hopefully things will change in time.
The B-Teams is a side-issue to the real problems with the pyramid - and I believe reform is needed from the top down, which won't happen unless a business-like proposal for re-structuring is put to all clubs to show how everyone wins.
If we accept in principle that B-teams can exist alongside established clubs, they really shouldn't be in the Lowland League but further up the chain - as is evidenced by their successful implementation across Europe. And they shouldn't (they currently don't) stop the free-flow of movement between the leagues.
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1 minute ago, Marten said:
You continue ignoring any arguments made by others, just like you did when we originally discussed this last year...
Yeah, when you predicted the cataclysmic downfall of non league-football, which has failed to materialise.
Just because you're angry about B-Teams and don't like them, it doesn't mean they're bad.
When there's such hostility to an idea in certain quarters, folk just won't engage for fear of getting shouted down by the mob.
I's basically a group of like-minded furious people agreeing with each other for 12 months solid - there's no debate or progress - what's the point in that?
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59 minutes ago, craigkillie said:
And since they introduced them they've failed to reach a Euros and a World Cup, then stumbled out of the last Euros at the last 16 stage. What a success story.
Like Germany (after Michael Owen thashed them), the Netherlands recognised something was wrong and have made moves to fix it. Change is generational and not instant.
For many years they didn't have to change a thing due to their historic successes.
Still, the Netherlands are ranked 10th in the world - which is moderately successful in the great scheme of things.
And the success of Spanish football in recent decades has roots in Holland / Cruyff.
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23 minutes ago, Burnieman said:
To be fair, I think you're barking up the wrong tree with this if you think two B teams in the Lowland League are suddenly going to improve the production line of top quality players for Scotland.
The loan system is a much more accessible way of helping younger players along, and players can be placed with clubs at differing levels within the game and different styles of play, different dressing room environment etc. eg. Marley Redfern, 18, loaned out to Blackburn Utd last season, 11 appearances in a very truncated season. This season 23 appearances for Hamilton Accies.
An U23/Reserve League is what is required, not B teams in the Pyramid (which only a few clubs could afford to run anyway).
The loan system would still work in addition to B-Teams, that won't necessarily stop.
And there's no reason why not to have a reserve league - but it doesn't provide the quality or intensity (or regularity due to frequently postponed fixtures) that playing competitive matches week-in week-out against men that is needed for the step up to 1st team football.
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5 minutes ago, Marten said:
I can also look up stats to suit me. Let's look at the Dutch team that played the World Cup final in 2010 and where they developed as youngsters (starting XI & subs):
- Maarten Stekelenburg - reserve league & in Ajax' first team at the age of 19
- Gregory van der Wiel - 2nd tier with Haarlem, then to Ajax' first team at 19
- John Heitinga - went straight from Ajax U18 to Ajax' first team at the age of 17
- Joris Mathijsen - Willem II U18, straight to Willem II's first team at the age of 18, moved on to AZ at 20
- Giovanni van Bronckhorst - reserve league & in Feyenoord's first team at the age of 18
- Mark van Bommel - started at non-league club RKVV Maasbracht, then moved to Fortuna Sittard and at PSV when he was 22
- Nigel de Jong - went straight from Ajax U18 to Ajax' first team at the age of 17
- Arjen Robben - started at non-league club vv Bedum, then moved to FC Groningen and at PSV when he was 18
- Wesley Sneijder - went straight from Ajax U18 to Ajax' first team at the age of 18
- Dirk Kuyt - started at non-league club Quick Boys, then FC Utrecht and at Feyenoord when he was 23
- Robin van Persie - Excelsior youth, then Feyenoord U18, straight to first team at the age of 17
- Eljero Elia - ADO Den Haag U18, then ADO Den Haag 1st team and FC Twente 1st team at the age of 20
- Rafael van der Vaart - went straight from Ajax U18 to Ajax' first team at the age of 17
- Edson Braafheid - started at non-league club Abcoude, then straight to FC Utrecht 1st team at 20 & FC Twente at the age of 24
Most of the players who came through youth ranks at pro clubs also started at a non-league club and were picked up as youth players. If this shows anything, it's that there are plenty of opportunities in The Netherlands to start at small clubs and move up, which is thanks to a large network of regional youth coaching/facilities/structures. Also, players who were good enough at a young age often skipped reserve leagues and went straight into the first team, what still often happens today.
FRANCE - 3rd best in the world
17 out of 23 players in their squad played in B teams, incuding Mbappe (Monaco - 12 apps).
391 appearances overall. Average age (current) = 26
What's the problem?
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5 hours ago, Marten said:
Portugal has had B-teams for decades, there is no reason to assume these players wouldn't have broken through if they were in a reserve league or out on loan instead.
You should compare a country that introduced B-teams in the not too distant past. Like The Netherlands, where the national team has been pish from 2014 (compared to where they were before). None of the big Dutch stars in history came through B-teams.
The current Netherlands squad features 15 players with B team experience (in the not too distant past):
Flekken, Drommel, de Light (he's good!), Teze, Timber, Wijndal, Til, Klaasen, Koopmeiners, de Jong, Bergwijn (a star?), Danjuma, Lang, Malen, Gakpo.
400 appearances between them in B-Teams
The current Spain squad has 18 players with 750 B team appearances between them (not including David Silva, retired - 14 times for Valencia B - he's brilliant!).
Portugal: 18 players, 611 B-Team appearances
Germany: 17 players, 341 B-Team apps
Croatia: 6 players, 81 B-Team apps
Ukraine: 12 players, 298 apps
Czech Republic: (quite recent, B teams parachuted in at Tier3) 3 players, 107 apps
I've not done France yet, but it's a lot too
Luddites!
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Some of the Braga team that beat Rangers tonight gained experience in B-Teams:
Fabiano (Braga B - 22 apps)
Carno (Braga B - 4 apps)
Al-Musrati (Vitoria de Guimaraes - 40 apps)
Ruiz (Barcelona B - 68 apps)
Mederos (Sporting CP - 68 apps)
P. Oliviera (Sporting CP - Vitoria de Guimaraes - 22 apps, and Sporting CP - 2 apps)
V. Oliviero (Brage B - 15 apps)
And Karim Benzema, who scored 3 for Real Madrid against Chelsea last night - he played 20 times for Lyon B team.
It'll never catch on here though
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24 minutes ago, Marten said:35 minutes ago, jamamafegan said:
Thanks for that. Gretna being relegated as well would be epic.Although I have nothing against Bonnyrigg and I would be happy for them to get promoted, Fraserburgh or Buckie promoting would be good for speeding up change in the LL. Gretna and VOL being replaced by Cowden and the tier 6 champions would definitely make the league more attractive and increases the chance of a vote to increase relegation passing in the near future.
More relegation spots from the Lowland League would be more likely if the number of promotion spots to the SPL was increased.
If 3 or 4 clubs moved up and down every season they will quickly find their level. But again, self-interest and collective refusal to adopt progressive change for the betterment of the game prevails.
The block is caused by the tier(s) above.
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7 minutes ago, BuddyZero said:
Not sure exactly how they do it in other countries but there seems to be a lot more flexibility and adaptability about league systems every so often, you see it across the continent. The voting system we have here appears to be good democracy at first glance but stifles all but the most meagre alterations at the slowest pace imaginable, with all parties not surprisingly choosing the option of whatever benefits them the most in the short term, which is usually the status quo. Proper democracies function not only with a fair share of voting but with limited terms of office. You're right that agreements are required to change these setups, but the agreements that are made are so obstructive to progress that there's barely any point trying to improve anything. I don't know what the ideal system should be but the behaviour of the LL clubs and the seniors in the past indicates letting the clubs themselves wield the power is a recipe for only self interest, carve-ups, closed shops and staleness.
The whole thing needs shaken up.
We don't yet have a 'pyramid' in Scotland. The league structure is a 'column', shaped by self interest from top to bottom. If we followed Central European precedent our league structure would be regional at Tier 3 or Tier 4, with B teams at T2 or T3 alongside other full-time professionals.
B-Teams feature across a belt of countries from Portugal to Slovakia:
1. Portugal (in T2); 2. Spain (T2); 3. France (T4); 4. Switzerland (T3); 5. Netherlands (T2); 6. Germany (T3); 7. Austria (T2); 8 Czech Rep (T2); 9. Poland (T3); Slovakia (T2)
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On 30/06/2021 at 23:12, Gordon EF said:
The power of B teams are such that Jadon Sancho was transformed from a callow youth to international superstar without ever even playing a full game at that level. He was given two run outs (one lasting 45 minutes and the other 54) before going straight into the Dortmund first team.
There's been some utterly brain dead pro-B team arguments here and this one is right up there.
Nobody, not one single person even said that, except you. Just made it up.
Ironic you continually saying other people are thick / brain dead / stupid.
Just more of the same parochial nonsense...
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6 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:
It's about a proper player pathway within a club. Here's a bunch of players signed from another club, often having already played 1st team football.
It's about development. Here's a bunch of players with single digit appearances for a 'B' team.
It's about the national team. Here's a bunch of players signed from their domestic league to play for a foreign 'B' team.
EDIT: The good thing about Barcelona B and Real Madrid Castilla operating on the scale they do, it's always fun to find the random journeymen filling the ranks.
Roger Riera on his 3rd Spanish 'B' team.
Matheus Pereira and his 4 stints at 'B' teams across 3 countries.
Here's one for you... Jadon Sancho... £73m transfer to Man United.
I'd expect some of that money will filter back to Watford and Man City who invested in the player's development.
His transition from youth to adult pro football included a 3 game stint in the Dortmund B team at just 17yr old.
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2 hours ago, big al said:
How many of those countries only allowed B teams for the biggest 2 clubs exclusively? 2 clubs that are already miles ahead of the rest and this is just aiding them further, to gather up even more of the promising youths and do whatever they feel fit to do with them.
I don't think it should be exclusive to Rangers and Celtic and I doubt they do either - if other clubs can afford to support a 2nd FT pro team then the same opportunity should be allowed for Hearts/ Hibs/ Aberdeen etc
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2 hours ago, crowie said:
I don’t believe playing B team football in the 5th tier in Scotland will improve them to any great degree.
If it’s to really benefit ALL of Scottish football then it needs to be at a higher level than LL.
If it’s to be done FAIRLY then any B team needs to earn the right to play at the highest level they can achieve….by starting at the very bottom and working their way there. Same as any other club in the pyramid.I agree they need to be at higher level than LL - it's not what they wanted but the best they could get, for now.
Certainly wouldn't see any value in starting FT players down in T8 or T9 - would be a waste of time and money and defeats the purpose.
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39 minutes ago, Torpar said:
He's won nothing with Argentina.
LOL - His 6 x Ballon d'or wins count for nothing, what a loser.
But to correct you, he did win the u20 World Cup and a gold medal at the 2008 Olympics among his 148 caps and 75 goals for Argentina.
Kenny Dalglish won nothing with Scotland mind - could do with him dusting down the Puma Kings eh.
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4 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:
It means some (a minority) of players in these national teams played some games for B teams. It doesn't mean they became better players for doing it, which is the only way it would actually benefit their national teams.
What, you believe that they went from u17s or u19s to B team competitive football against professional adults, and it didn't improve them?
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Just now, RiG said:
Playing a handful of games in a B team is definitely the reason that Guardiola turned into the player he was. Nothing to do with his natural ability, excellent coaching and training facilities and massive amounts of money thrown at the Barcelona academy. As soon as he was good enough he was in the Barcelona first team. These are the reasons countries like Spain develop good players.
'Natural ability' - What is that exactly?
The Barcelona B team is part of the Academy and coaching structure - it's a component of their pathway to the 1st team (for players and coaches) - the transition between youth and adult football at the highest level of the game.
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8 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:
Ok, so we should have B teams in Scottish football so that maybe it’ll help the Argentinian national team?
No, it's to help the Scottish National Team.
If the league standard improves, so will the players = best v best.
So if the next Messi signs for Rangers and plays for a season in their B team, or even Stenhousemuir the Hibs B team, it would raise the standard of that team. It would improve those around him, and provide a challenge for those playing against him (who, mostly, will be Scottish).
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20 minutes ago, RiG said:
Going to go out on a limb here and say that B teams were not critical to the development of Lionel Messi.
Aye ok, shut the door on the way out eh
I suppose it didn't help Guardiola as a player and as a manager either
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22 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:
1. Yes, just cancel the whole thing.
2. How does that help to develop players for the national team, which after all is the whole point of this allegedly?
3. Yes, Lionel Messi is quite good - the third best player of all time in fact (behind Ross Forbes and Cristiano Ronaldo, in that order). I would suggest that the downside is that fans of other clubs in Spain’s lower leagues have to put up with their leagues being a joke. And that having someone gain experience could be done extremely easily using the loan system. Just this week, Thistle sent one of our best prospects to Stenhousemuir for the season to gain experience, with absolutely no impact on sporting integrity whatsoever. Remarkable, isn’t it?
Edit: if you could also explain how Lionel Messi’s games for Barcelona B have helped the Spanish national team, that’d be great.
Messi is Argentinian - he's helped out with their national team a bit.
Spanish football is a joke, aye?
What B team did Ross Forbes play for?
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I translated a bit from this article on the Czech Republic:
"The B-team primarily serves the needs of the A-team, but our main goal is to develop our young players. We set goals to train and play with the same intensity, difficulty and game expression as the A-team shows us. A possible move would be a strategic step forward, we have set it within two years, "said Jiří Bílek, a member of the Slavic leadership, for the club website.
"Compared to the junior league, it will definitely be a jump for the boys. On the one hand, there is already a game of promotion and relegation, and older players are also appearing in the competition, which awaits the boys for the first time. I wonder what it will look like. We can also count on the fact that players from the A-team will play for us in some matches, “added the coach of the Pilsen reserve Pavel Horváth.
They're quite good as well - certainly papped Scotland anyway.
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Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?
in Lowland League
Posted
I agree with this...
Although starting at the bottom in effect would block progress - because they'd likely sail through the leagues preventing other teams from getting promoted, whilst that time spent to get up the pyramid wouldn't achieve the competitive levels required - nobody wins.
If anything, I'd be interested to look at it the opposite way round: What happens if the league expands and opens up the 3rd tier, and drop the B teams there immediately.