[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

15 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

This is Dinamo Zagreb's squad list under their 2020-21 wikipedia page. Helpfully they tell you who they signed from or through their academy. 'B' teams are doing a cracking job for them 5+ years in.

According to the squad on wiki, they have 19 Croats out of a 33 squad = 57%.  Same as Slavia Prague.

Now consider the graduates playing at bigger clubs elsewhere: Eduardo, Modric, Corluka, Lovren, Vrsaljko, Brozovic, Kovacic, Olmo, Pjaca, Madzukic.

The Academy is doing a cracking job.

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

2 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:

Holy shit.  
Shite youth football academies in Europe have adult B Teams: FACT.
The national teams of Armenia and Azerbaijan are consistently worse than Scotland: FACT
The top Armenian and Azeri 1st team clubs have more home-grown players than we do: FACT
That's all the evidence we need to justify fucking up lower league football for the benefit of two clubs.

FTFY.

Good one, I see what you did there  GENIUS.

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

1 minute ago, Gordon EF said:

We're going to have to agree to disagree here.

I'll take your baker analogy. Let's say I'm an average baker, producing average cakes and I want to learn from a baker who's much better than me. They way to do it is by studying and analysing what they do and understanding why they do what they do and how I can incorporate that into my baking. You don't just say "well they add vanilla so if I also add vanilla, surely I'll become a great baker too".

Over the past few posts, I've tried to be a bit more open to the whole B teams idea. If it comes as part of a wider re-organisation of youth development in Scotland and the argument can be made that B teams play a part, fine. 

 

Naw, actually, the cake was spectacular: multi award winning, one of the best in Europe, and slices were sold for lots and lots of money.  And other bakers tried their best to copy it, some more successfully than others.

But yes, happy to disagree, and glad to hear you're trying to open up 

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

28 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

See with most of them. Ajax, Juventus, Dinamo Zagreb etc  it's not about national youth development. It's about super clubs trying to compete and gain an advantage in the £100m+ transfer era. It's also so new over there that the data is just that 'B' teams exist not that they've been greatly beneficial to the clubs let alone the national team.

Almost all of them also operate in more open league systems than Scotland.

Correct, and what's wrong with that? 

It's in their interests to develop better players.  Better players is the whole point.  The club wins, and so does the country.

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

24 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Where is this evidence, data and facts then? Show us the evidence that players who get B team experience are better than they would otherwise have been? You've been asked to provide it before and didn't. If it exists, surely it's not hard to find. "Croatia have B teams and they're gid" isn't evidence.

I'm not saying all these people are stupid. I'm not even saying you're stupid. I'm saying your arguments are. And, for about the hundredth time, most of these clubs (and, by extension, the people who represent them) advocate for B teams from a position of self-interest, not from a position of helping their countries produce better players. How are you finding this so difficult to grasp?

Holy shit.  

Successful youth football academies in Europe have adult B Teams: FACT. 

The national teams of Croatia and Czech Republic are consistently better than Scotland: FACT

The top Croatian and Czech 1st team clubs have more home-grown players than we do: FACT

That's all the evidence we need to justify following their lead and learning from them.  B Teams are part of their overall structure, the player pathway at each club, and overall, they work. 

If you enjoy a cake then ask for the ingredients - you don't ask him to leave out the vanilla next time because you don't like it, and you think the success of the cake does not rely on the inclusion of vanilla. You just accept the judgement of the baker - he knows how to bake a cake!

 

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

28 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

By developing the ability to think critically. For example, Croatia and Czech Republic both beginning with 'C' is a fact. But that's a ludicrous fact when you use it to try to determine why they're better football teams than Scotland. It's an ability most people have, to varying degrees.

Again, it's just a general ability to think critically. The argument that Croatia were better than Scotland when neither country had B teams in their leagues and therefore B teams are good is a stupid argument, because logically, it makes absolutely no sense. Having a different opinion is fine. Backing your opinion with a stupid argument is stupid. As I said, Croatia getting beaten by England and therefore B teams = bad is also stupid, even though it's made to back up the same opinion I hold.

Well it's just objectively not. All we're talking about here is B teams. We all know you support them and are basically just taking the view 'give it a go'. That's fine. All I'm really finding to take issue with in your posts are the arguments you're using to support B teams. 'Just give it a go' is fine. Folk can agree with that or not. 

Proceed with the trial because data, evidence and facts (from Europe) suggests it works.

But naw, you just keep saying everything is stupid.  Cruyff, Guardiola, Gerrard, Kennedy, Croatia, Spain, Holland, Czech Republic, Rangers, Celtic, Slavia Prague, Sparta Prague, Dinamo Zagreb, Ajax, Barcelona, Juventus: ALL STOOPID.

Nice one, you should try out on Question Time - go tell them they're all just stupid.

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

13 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

 

We all get it, some folk are pro B teams, some folk are anti them. Just cherry picking utterly ludicrous facts or arguments to suit what you want to be true is stupid and isn't advancing the argument or changing anyone's mind.

 

How do you differentiate between a ludicrous fact and a sensible fact? 

And what's the criteria separating a 'stupid' argument, as opposed to simply having a different opinion to somebody else? 

This is about taking a wider view, and not just focusing on 'B Teams: BAD, or B Teams GOOD'.   All I'm saying is that I think we should try.

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

1 hour ago, Gordon EF said:

Responding to failure and innovation are clearly good, when the ideas are good. Absolutely nobody is arguing against that. Just being reactionary is not good. The argument isn't whether change is good or bad. 

Stepping away from Croatia to the Czech Republic, because somebody else referenced them previously, pointing out that no player who featured v Scotland ever played for a B Team.  And that may well be the case.  But they mostly came through Club Academies, of which 'B' teams is a fundamental part of their player pathway.  

So compare Schick (who can score) against Dykes (who could not) and assess the gulf in quality.  Schick made his 1st team debut for Sparta Prague age 18.  He'd been in the Sparta Academy since age 11.  Presumably he bypassed the B team, such was his level of readiness.  Beforehand he will have played u15s, u16s, u17s in a competitive environment - no doubt tested in training against their own u20s and u21s... B team players.  This, in their own club academy and part of the same player pathway. 

Those other players (not quite ready to step up) are retained at the club, and have value - as future 1st team players, for re-sell on to other clubs, and as (best v best) competition in-house for aspiring younger players (like Schick), ultimately helping with their development to superstardom and a £40m valuation.   

The point is: the B team is part of the whole picture of player development at each club, the transition between youth and pro-adult football.

Onto the Czech league structure: In recent years, from what I can gather, TWELVE Czech B teams were 'parachuted in' to their tier 3 of the football pyramid.  no mucking about - in they went, with little deference to 'football integrity' it seems.  But then on the face of it, there's an obvious pragmatism about this approach.

Re the national team: The Czech average WORLD ranking is 20th, and Scotland around 40th over a 20 year period.  

In their first team club squads (on wiki, flag counting), Sparta Prague has 74% Czech players and Slavia 57%.  Conversely, Celtic have just 44% Scots and Rangers only 33%.

Czech Republic and Croatia are evidently successful at player development.  The leaders know what they are doing and can point to clear evidence of success.  B teams are implemented in their league structures, and at their academies. 

So is it a good idea, or a bad idea?

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

22 minutes ago, Marten said:

Come on, "500 spectators as a conservative estimate" is not even a potential. Surely even you should realise that number is completely unrealistic?

Same for games on mainstream channels.

Well it certainly is if clubs are limited to 250 due to COVID restrictions!

But I really have no idea what the demand among OF supporters and neutrals will be - this is crystal ball type stuff:  nobody knows.  Bearing in mind that the 1st team stadiums won't be allowed to be full, you've got the 'novelty' factor, and there are usually busloads OF fans travelling to Ibrox and Parkhead every other week from most (Lowland) regions still looking to follow their club(?)  - I'm not sure that 500 is completely unrealistic.  I expect they'll be charging more than a fiver at the gate though.

The LL clubs themselves will have a greater handle on it, and are smart enough to recognize what is a real prospect and what is unattainable - and they'd have weighed that up when considering the proposal.  

No question though, when you're pitching an idea and want people to agree to it, you must be bullish and optimistic - so I'm not going to criticize the author for trying!

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

17 minutes ago, Marten said:

54 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Embarrassing how? This is something that somebody has actually taken care over and DONE, as opposed to your nugatory contribution which is to only TALK about what needs to be done.

I just explained why it's embarrassing. Can you read? It's just some wild assumptions that aren't realistic at all.

I can read - It says 'potential' additional revenues, i.e latent qualities or abilities that may be developed and lead to future success or usefulness.  And you're embarrassed by that? And quite content to laugh at it.

Yet you don't even know the difference between the meaning of the words 'potential' and 'assumptions'.  

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

52 minutes ago, Marten said:

That one has the laughable pish of 500 supporters at games being a conservative estimate, I'd be shocked if they end up averaging over 100, most games they will probably have under 50... And it mentioned matches on mainstream TV as well. It's an embarrassing document. 

Embarrassing how? This is something that somebody has actually taken care over and DONE, as opposed to your nugatory contribution which is to only TALK about what needs to be done.

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

23 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

It's kind of hard to believe any of their findings and research since they never actually disclose that and come out with lies like this. The SPFL has a reserve league, like other countries.

The reserve league replaced the development league and is not age-restricted.  At the end of its first season (18/19) Aberdeen, Celtic, Hibs, Rangers and St Johnstone withdrew from it. 

I'd imagine it didn't provide the rigorous levels of competition required to prepare young players for the demands of 1st team football.  Which is more or less what John Kennedy said - he'd been to Spain to see how B teams work for clubs and player development over there.

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

7 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

You mean this? The thing that had bugger all in terms of detailing changes to youth development and amounted to a sales pitch to get into the league? Quite a lot looked at it so it could be laughed at. 

Lowland League Proposal - May 2021 minus cover sheet.pdf 7.82 MB · 25 downloads

Except they didn't, remember?  There was a vote by clubs which found in favour of the proposal.

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

24 minutes ago, Marten said:

Literally nothing has come out to show they (and you) are looking at wider measures to improve youth development....

It seems that you are the one having a pre-determined set of unshakeable and one-sided narrow views, a closed mindset.

Frustration. 

Here's another attempt.  Please watch this, just 8 minutes of your life,  and tell me you believe nothing is being done (by the OF) to look at wider measures to improve youth development in Scotland.   This video, LITERALLY, is published online and freely available.

Rangers consulted EVERY club, and sought to implement the feedback in their transition paper, of which, B Teams was a part.  If nothing is being done, it is not for the want of trying.

They believe that Scotland is the only country in Europe NOT to have a pathway from 17 to 21 years old.  They state that their findings are 'steeped in data', and they are following 'strategies that have worked in other countries'.

The implementation of B Teams is 'clearly to their benefit', and Strategic Partnerships might work for others.

 

 

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

2 minutes ago, Marten said:

Obviously the OF do this to benefit themselves, otherwise they won't be doing this. But they clearly just throw in the "and it's good for the game in Scotland and ultimately the national team" as unsubstantiated pish in order to try to justify themselves. As said, it's not about youth development as NONE of the actual issues with youth development are even being talked about. Not by them and not by you.

Wrong. But how do you even know that?  Because you refused to watch the Stewart Robertson interview or read any articles on the subject.  You couldn't even bring yourself to study the graphic which promoted the scheme, previously shared on this thread. 

You bring only a pre-determined set of unshakeable and one-sided narrow views, a closed mindset. 

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

4 minutes ago, Marten said:

Yes, you clearly do see it as a quick fix. It's the ONLY thing you focus on. When a country that happen to have B-teams is ahead of Scotland, you immediately conclude it's because of that and don't look at any other factors that might also come into play. And the same with the OF pushing their B-teams, they claim it's for youth development. It's clearly not, they don't even talk about any of the actual issues with youth development. They ignore them, and so do you.

It's fine to have an actual debate about how to improve youth development. I brought forward some points on the subject a few times, but both yourself & the OF focus on one thing only, nothing else.

Not quite, Stewart Robertson openly admits that this is a venture to benefit themselves - the OF are businesses after all - but the consequential effects, they argue, will be beneficial to the game in Scotland and ultimately the national team. But in the longer-term, if properly implemented.  Nobody is saying this is a quick-fix - if they are to progress things beyond this season, it might be that they must start at the bottom of the pyramid and work through the leagues, that'll be a discussion to be had later.

On Croatia, Zagreb is a selling club. They invest what they can in their key assets which is their youth development program and young players.  It works for them as a business, as a football club, and it works for their country.  B Teams are part of their structure and player pathway, and that is a fact.

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

1 minute ago, Marten said:

Or The Netherlands for that matter, who haven't exactly been impressive over the last years!

And interestingly, like Scotland, the Netherlands were slow to implement a functioning football pyramid.  Why change anything? they might have asked.  They were the doing things right, so it seemed,  one of the best in the world... but Belgium have overtaken them, masters of innovation and change.  Germany started completely afresh after they were thrashed by England in 2001 - They responded to failure.  

Implementation of change (or not adapting) has an effect further down the line, a generation away, the 'Hidden side of everything' if you believe the likes of Steven Levitt / Freakonomics. 

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

Just now, DiegoDiego said:

3 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Take a look at the FIFA world rankings and compare performance over the past 20 years as a more reliable measure than one match v England.
They reached 4th place in 1998, 7th in 2008 and 4th again in 2018.  Their most recent ranking is 14th, which puts them in the top 10 sides at the Euros - whereas 14th is the highest placing for Scotland in 2007 over a twenty-odd year period. 
Scotland is currently ranked 44th in the world, and 22nd out of 24 at this tournament.
It is right that we look to successful small countries like Croatia for ideas and inspiration.  Adult B teams has been a part of their player pathway for many years. 
That's not to say that 'B' Teams is the only answer, but suggests it is worth exploring.  Bigger countries like Portugal (5th), Spain (6th), Italy (7th), Germany (12th), Netherlands (16th) all feature B teams in their league structures - and they all do international football and player development better than us.
https://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/associations/association/cro/men/
 

Nice cherry-picked list of countries there, now throw in Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan and all the other dross with B teams in their system.

The reference to Croatia was in response to a specific point about them losing to England.  The others are in the Euros (successful), so it is topical. 

But you're right, we could also talk about other small countries like Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Wales - all well ahead of Scotland in the rankings yet don't have B Teams - but then, one might argue that they (or any of the other small countries you reference) do not quite have a Celtic and Rangers equivalent with similar resources. 

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

20 minutes ago, Marten said:

Ah, you're still ignoring all my actual arguments that I posted multiple times then? And you clearly still see B-teams just as a quick fix while ignoring my points on how to actually improve youth development.

Fact is that this plan is not about youth development, never has been and never will be.

The last 'argument' I read was another of your fictitious and typically apocalyptic versions of the future of semi-professional / amateur football in this country, which was based on nothing of any substance whatsoever.  That somehow Scottish non-league football would eviscerate because of the introduction of Old Firm B Teams. 

I don't see B teams as a quick fix, no -  When have I ever said that? I believe it is worth exploring though, on an initial trial period, which is exactly what is about to happen.  And at the end of the season, the following day, the sun will rise in the morning and come back down again at night.  And we will know what was successful in the trial and what was not - instead of relying on hyperbole and other made up stuff. 

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

13 minutes ago, Marten said:

Factual analysis... If someone's misinformed shite matches up with your opinion, it doesn't make it factual analysis. 

I know that you don't give a sh!t about lower league football, but most people here do.

Facts, as apposed to your melodramatic doomsday pessimism?

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

27 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Belgium has B teams? The use of B teams in Croatia mostly serves Dinamo Zagreb rather than any of the other clubs in the division.

I did not actually say that Belgium had B teams.  But happy to expand on Belgium, and the sweeping changes implemented by Michel Sablon.  From everyone playing 4-3-3, to NOT focusing on results (WINNING) in children's football. 

Interestingly, his inspiration was Johan Cruyff... who didn't stop B teams at Ajax or Barcelona.

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

5 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Them punching above their weight doesn't seem to have anything to do with B teams, given that you have pointed out that they have been doing it for the last 20 years, long before the B teams were part of the league system. Your plot illustrated the downward slide in their rankings over the last 4 years, which corresponds with these B team players beginning to integrate into the national team.

If the people leading some of the best youth football development programs in Europe believe that the introduction of B Team football was and still is necessary as part of their overall program, chances are there is great substance and qualitative evidence to back their decision making.  This in itself makes it worth listening to and following their lead.

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

21 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

 

Given that they achieved their best ranking in 1998 when they didn't have B teams, and seem to be on the slide ever since they were introduced and players from them started to come through, I'm not sure this is making the point you think it is.

 

On the slide...? For goodness sake.  Population 4m? They are and have been punching well above their weight for over 20 years.  They won their qualifying group for the Euros, and currently are top of their qualifying group for the 2022 World Cup.

The point is, they have an extremely successful youth development program - this is evidenced by the number of young players exported to the best leagues in Europe and  by the consistent success of their national team.  The player pathway includes B Teams from the top professional clubs. 

So why is it acceptable in Croatia, but not in Scotland?

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

10 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

I’m sorry, but anyone who genuinely thinks the integrity of domestic football in Scotland should be sacrificed so that we can be a bit higher in the FIFA rankings isn’t worth debating with. 

Don't then.  Just red dot everyone who has a different opinion.  All the best 

[Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?]

13 minutes ago, A Believer said:

Great stuff Regretfully some won't let factual trend analysis get in the way of good old fashioned deep-seated opinion based on anecdote.

Cheers.  Unfortunately,  ignorance, pessimism and populist untruths are pervasive.

For further reading try FACTFULNESS by Hans Rosling.  Ten reasons why we're wrong about the world, and why things are better than you think.  The book features 10 instincts that distort our perspective including: Negativity, Fear, Size, Generalization, Blame, Urgency etc.

On the subject of B-Teams, we have all this 'best-practice' evidence across Europe to learn from... set against an "Aye Been / It'll never work here / over my dead body" mentality towards change in this country.