Che Dail
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Posts posted by Che Dail
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15 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:
So Ukraine and Switzerland had more players who never played for a B team? Does that mean players who didn't play for B teams are better?
No, it simply means that some international players have benefitted from B teams in the pathway at their clubs.
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22 hours ago, Rodhull said:
You honestly think this is being done for the benefit of the national team?
This is being done so the old firm can hoover up even more youth talent than they do currently. Talent of all kinds of nationalities no doubt.
Of all the countries that have B teams in their setups theres very little evidence of any benefit to the countries national side from this.
Ukraine had 6 players in their squad last night with B team experience including Zinchenko the 1st goalscorer (Jong PSV).
Yarmolenko - Kiev 2 (35apps)
Stepanenko - Metalurh 2 (16)
Sydorchuk - Metalurh 2 (17)
Malinovskiy - Shaktar 3rds (39)
Makarenko - Kiev 2 (30)
and Switzerland has:
Benito - Benfica B (5);
Elvedi - Zurich B (24)
Ajetti - Augsburg B (6)
Widmer - Aarau B (9)
Xhaka - Concordia Basel (feeder team)
Zuber - Hoffenheim B (3)
Sow - Zurich B (20) and Borrussia Moenchengladbach B (32)
Shaquiri - Basel B (19)
Gavranovic - Shalke 04 B (5)
Others in the last eight with B teams in their league structure include Spain, Italy, Czech Rep. Out the comp are Portugal, Croatia, Holland and Germany.
In the Czech Rep, B teams were introduced en-masse at Tier 3 in 2019/20.
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5 hours ago, Jack Burton said:17 hours ago, Che Dail said:On the same basis that other league bodies across Europe prohibit this, No, I wouldn't.
The rules in other European countries governing B teams would have nothing to do with Scotland. Why would you not support B teams in the top flight?
That's not what I said. I said that on the same basis (i.e. for the same reasons) that the European countries do not support B teams in the top flight, neither would I - and nor should the SFA.
Why do you ask, do you think they should? You think Rangers B should be in the same league as the 1st team? Radical, but I don't think your idea will pass.
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2 hours ago, oneteaminglasgow said:
What does this even mean?
I'm talking about the impact of football: economic, social and health benefits. It means when the national football team does well, the positive effects are wide ranging.
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2 hours ago, Jack Burton said:
The B teams will have set squads so transferring players between the first and B teams is a non-issue.
If all the B teams play weakened sides against their parent club then any points gained would be nullified.
Surely as this about player development we want the B teams playing against the best teams in the country. So surely you would support B teams being in the top flight?On the same basis that other league bodies across Europe prohibit this, No, I wouldn't.
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27 minutes ago, parsforlife said:
Why should we do that?
The national side play a handful of games a year. Our clubs play every single week, club football is clearly most important and that should always be the case.
Any sacrifice to our club game to help the national side is a shite decision.
Unless someone can put forward a good argument on how B teams will help improve our club game, especially at non/lower leagues where the B teams will be dumped beyond 'well there's a bribe' then this will always anger fans and hopefully always be crushed by clubs.
It should be that the country can develop players, clubs and the league structures to allow the best young players to thrive and develop. The 'side-effect' of developing better players is that the game improves, our clubs get stronger, and our national team benefits.
But in order for that to happen, change is needed and compromise will be necessary. This won't please everyone - especially those who cannot see the bigger picture.
The professional clubs have a massive part to play. Our two strongest clubs, the ones capable of competing at European level, are pitching an idea to introduce their B teams to the league structure. They say it will improve them as clubs and their pool of young (mainly Scottish players) coming through their academy structure. I think we should listen, and try it.
The success of the national team is in everyone's interest, and that goes beyond football.
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9 hours ago, virginton said:
I couldn't give a toss about the Dutch or Belgians. In this country club football stomps all over international football from a monumental height.
Quite a narrow view - if we're to shift focus towards the success of the national team, we should be looking to other countries to learn how they do it better than us - player development, club development, league structures, football philosophy, the lot.
If you haven't seen it already, check out the BBC Roberto Martinez documentary and see the focus and importance placed on the Belgian national team. It's number 1 for a reason.
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9 hours ago, Dundee Hibernian said:
If you read my post to which you responded with the article, which seems to suggest B sides benefit their clubs and not their nations, you'll understand that I stated the Old Firm are trying to get their colt teams in to eventually replace their top sides if they get a chance to move elsewhere. That section does not address that point in any way.
Ronaldo made a massive 2 (two) appearances for the B team, in the same season in which he had 32 places on the pitch for Sporting's first squad.
I was replying to:
"Why not put the B teams in the top flight then why stop at tier 2?"
(Think you'd shared that from another poster, sorry, should've replied direct to him).
Are the OF definitely trying to move their 1st teams elsewhere?
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19 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:
And Barcelona, the Spanish/Catalonian club, remind me of how many appearances Messi has made for Spain?
Not one.
Ronaldo, however, did make a few for Portugal - he played for Sporting B team.
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16 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:
You'd have to indicate the section to me, as I see nothing connected to the point I made in that article.
And Barcelona, the Spanish/Catalonian club, remind me of how many appearances Messi has made for Spain?
Copy / pasted from the article:
As a reserve team, clubs such as Barcelona and Real Madrid have been given special privileges by the Spanish Football Association which allow them to transfer players to and from their B teams throughout the season, even when the transfer window is closed. However, in order to keep things fair, B teams are barred from playing in the same division as their senior side.
For example, when Castilla and Bilbao Athletic, the reserve team of La Liga side Athletic Bilbao, finished up in first and second place in the 1983/84 Segunda Division season, it was Hercules CF, Racing de Santander and Elche CF, who finished third, fourth and fifth respectively, who gained promotion to the top flight.
The reason for this decision is due to the fact that clubs could use their B teams to benefit their senior teams. They could field a weakened squad when the two teams meet, for example, or transfer all of their best players to the B team when they face tougher opponents.
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22 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:
Don't worry about that, it's the aim if or when the 'Old Firm' f. off elsewhere for their B teams to play in the top tier.
Well there's an explanation why they don't allow it in the Spanish League in this article:
https://www.goalprofits.com/football-club-b-teams/
As an aside, it also says Messi played 22 times for Barcelona B team.
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5 minutes ago, virginton said:
The idea that there should be a 'national formation' instilled in the club game is absolute madness. Take your Hamish Husband levels of obsession with thu national team!!! and place yourselves in the sea.
Yeah, those crazy Dutch and Belgians, absolute madness! Must be the North Sea. What do they know about football? Obsessed.
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27 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:
Netherlands has three times the population of Scotland, have had colt sides in their system for 8 years as far as I can make out, and in that time the national side appears to have slumped to a low point in that they were 2nd in WC in 2010, 3rd in 2014, and failed to qualify for 2018. Similarly, from two semi final appearances in 2000 and 2004 in the Euros, they were quarter finalists in 2008, failed to qualify in 2012 from the group stages, and in 2016 did not get to the finals.
How that leads to 'seems to be working' confuses me.
The Dutch also don't appear to be as religiously confused as the Scots, thus don't suffer from the baggage of sectarianism, which I'm sure is the root cause of much of the opposition to the Old Firm colt applications. Finally, I don't think the top Dutch sides are looking to leave a presence in their league set up if they manage to find a way into the English competitions.
It is working because they have 7 international players age 23 or under who have progressed through academy / b team / 1st team at clubs, and that progression is mirrored for the national team. The effects of changes, big and small, are not always immediate. The downward trend since 2010 will have roots 10 or 15 years before - not sure why it occured.
But since 2016 they've gone from 22nd to 20th to 14th to 12th (then back to14th) and could well find themselves top 10 in the world again after the Euros.
England has 3 times the population of the Netherlands - I don't think population is a more accurate measure than, say, wealth - because richer countries tend to fare better at sport (eg see Norway / Denmark).
But broadly speaking, over the past 20-30-40 years, I think most of Europe has looked to the Netherlands for inspiration when it comes to (total) football.
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39 minutes ago, Marten said:
Still there is a lot room for improvement in the Scottish system as I explained before. That includes better coaching, better facilities, better co-ordination across the country and so on. It's those issues on which countries like The Netherlands, Croatia and others (not just countries with colt teams!) are so far ahead. Let's start adressing them maybe
Colt teams are only in tiers 2 & 3 in the Netherlands, Dumfries came from lower down so he played in tiers unaffected by these disgraceful teams. They clearly had a negative impact on the remaining teams in tiers 2 & 3 though...
Yes - I think a consistent 'national' approach to playing style and formation would help. For example it almost goes without saying that Dutch teams right the way through the player pathway will adopt a 4-3-3 or variations thereof, always with an attitude towards attacking and going forward (that's just the way football is played). I believe that was something Mark Wotte was trying to implement, but found it difficult getting buy-in from others who knew better.
Michel Sablon had similar struggles in Belgium, but succeeded - and now the national team is reaping the rewards. Did you see the Roberto Martinez BBC film? Really impressive.
Facilities are improving here too - there are many more astros and indoor facilities - and coach education continues to grow - the foundations are there. I just think the top levels league structure is dull and wasteful, and not aligned with what others do in Europe - and if we want to be like them, we need to pick out examples of best practice across the board (youth to adult) and copy them.
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10 minutes ago, Marten said:
Far more important is the fact that these players benefited from an integrated youth setup all over the country from the top right down to the grass roots. The surprise of the tournament on the Dutch team Denzel Dumfries has started at non-league level and used that system to develop as a player. He only got picked up by a professional side late & in a few years he went from non-league to PSV's starting XI.
But as pointed out before, the OF are not working on improving youth structures in Scotland as a whole. And neither are the SFA, whose job it should really be!
There is a clear pathway for children in Scotland all the way from 5-6yr old up to under 19s and a lot of good work done over the years by the SFA and grassroots clubs. The apparent gap is an adequate transition from pro-youth to pro-adult football.
You say Denzel Dumfries started at non-league level... so B teams have not yet caused the complete implosion of non-league football in the Netherlands, as per your predictions for Scotland?
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6 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:
Working compared to what exactly? Are these players any better or worse than 5-10 years ago? You know when they World Cup finalists and 3rd place which is apparently the all important metric for judging 'B' teams success.
All those 'B' teams also play in the full time 2nd Tier. Whereas this proposal on the go, and the OF involvement in the LL will be capped playing against part-timers.
Yes - I think Scotland can only sustain and only needs 2 professional leagues of FT players - and for B teams to have real value longer term, they would need to be in T2.
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4 minutes ago, 10menwent2mow said:
Andy Robertson is a prime example of how to progress. With a colt system he'd probably have been kept on at Celtic until he was 19/20 then released. By the time he was 20, he'd signed for Hull.
You look at our Euro 2020 squad, Gallagher, Robertson, O'Donnell all released by Celtic but went on to progress from the lower leagues. Marshall, Tierney, Mcginn, Mcgregor, Christie, Gordon, Taylor, Armstrong, Turnbull, Nisbet, Fraser, Patterson, Gilmour, Hendry, Forrest and McKenna all came through our game.
Look at the list of clubs those guys have played for at youth level. Celtic, St Mirren, ICT, Hearts, Killie, Dundee U, Motherwell, Partick, Aberdeen, Rangers, Dundee. The thing most of them have in common is that they were in first teams (mainly in the top flight) as teenagers, keeping them in OF colt teams until 19-20-21 and playing against league 1&2 teams is not going to develop us better players, it's just going to mean that instead of Celtic and Rangers having to pay for a Greg Taylor or a David Turnbull, thus helping the Scottish game in general, they'll already have them on their books.
It will also not make Rangers or Celtic anymore likely to give youth a chance if there is a quick fix they can buy from abroad for £1m.In the last 10 matches, the national team with some of the players you've listed has delivered: LDLWDWDDLL = equivalent to10 pts. In most league tables this form at 1 point per game would mean relegation zone. The two wins were against Luxemburg and the Faroe Islands.
The league system and the clubs might be delivering some 'hope' for the national team, but not really any success when compared to other similarly small and wealthy countries such as Croatia, Denmark, Wales etc.
Here's an example of how the young Dutch players have progressed. All are full internationals, albeit not all were named in the squad for the Euros. The 'Yong' or B teams are in the Eerste Divisie (Tier 2).
Ryan Gravenberch (19); 44 Ajax B then 42 Ajax
Jurrien Timber (20); 59 Ajax B then 21 Ajax
Matthhijs de Ligt (21); 17 Ajax B then 77 Ajax + 56 Juventus
Owen Vijndal (21); 59 Ajax B then 21 Ajax
Cody Gakpo (22); 26 PSV B then 65 PSV
Donyell Malen (22); 22 PSV B then 81 PSV
Teun Koopmeiners (23); 25 AZ B then 114 AZ Alkmaar
Davy Klassen (28); 6 Ajax B then 126 Ajax + Everton + W.Bremen + Ajax
Most of these guys featured for Netherlands at age groups u15 / u16/ u17 etc - all were retained in their club academy system, all have increased in value for their club, and all feature for the national side with potential to continue their development. Other than Klassen, they're 19-23 yr old with bright futures ahead.
It seems to be working, but no doubt our resident Dutch Nostradamus will explain why it is a disaster @Marten
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1 hour ago, Benidorm said:
Despite the wailing and gnashing about our top flight, our lower league setup is actually significantly stronger than many. We have more (A lot more in some instances) professional teams than most countries our size and many bigger. Per head our attendances are probably as strong as any, and if anything the setup is likely to continue to increase in strength due to the pyramid. Well, it was....
Some of the lower league setups in mainland Europe are appalling in comparison tbh.
More supporters going to watch games of football doesn't equate to a better standard of play.
Look at our clubs' European co-efficient compared to other leagues abroad. You only need to look at some of the results by Killie or whoever else gets knocked out before R1 Europa league to see how strong our league structure is by comparison - there's no real strength in depth.
Changing to 12-12-12-12 won't change that - it's not a 'restructure' of something good, just adding more numbers playing each other 4 times a season the length and breadth of the country.
We have 2 pro-leagues of, overall, mediocrity. And then part-time football beneath that - deluded to think it's somehow any better than lower level football in Europe.
Over the piece we get old school up-and-at 'em, kick and rush, run run run, roll it back to the GK to scud it up the pitch - it's mostly not a treat to watch - and that's reflected in our football all the way up to the national team.
But that's not always the case at u16, u17, u19 - the problem is bridging the gap or transition between youth and adult professional football and getting our best young players playing at the top level v men in Scotland or abroad.
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2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:
...but playing Vale of Leithen and Gretna would be? I could live with more of a German or Spanish style approach to U-23 teams in lower divisions if it was the price for prizing open the Club 42 playoff and getting rid of a tier or two of national divisions but there's clearly no way anything radical is ever getting through the SPFL's voting structure at this point so maybe the clubs mentioned need to find a way to design an elite fully professional reserves set up that does work for them in terms of that transition?
I know, it won't - but in fairness their preference had been to enter teams at least one tier up from LL.
On structure: Scotland only needs (and can only sustain) two FT professional leagues.
Longer term, if admitted, I think B teams should be limited to T2.
At T3 I think we should have a national semi-pro 'Conference' of 16 clubs and T4 could be split regionally: LLW / LLE / Central / Highland.
Something along those lines, a bit like the Czech league system. But instead of a pyramid shape, we have a 'column' structure.
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31 minutes ago, peternapper said:
Not good enough for who, surely if all teams should have a chance to compete & in the main premier league sides should provide better opposition than tier 5 part timers.
The best thing to improve Scottish football would be for the Old Firm to get their wish to leave
it was not a good enough standard to aid the transition from B team to 1st team - so 5 or 6 clubs left it behind, including Hibs, Aberdeen, Celtic & Rangers - which made it even poorer than it was to begin with.
A breakaway was predicted recently by the Dundee Chairman - might happen, who knows?
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16 minutes ago, Marten said:
Do something about the actual issues with youth development in Scotland and f**k off with B-teams, which won't help and will ruin lower league football in Scotland.
People who support B-teams, don't care about lower league football in Scotland. That's simply a fact.
How will it ruin lower league football in Scotland? How can you possibly reach this conclusion?
"People who support B-teams don't care about lower league football in Scotland. That is simply a fact."
No, that is patently not a fact, it is another hysterical (and incorrect) claim, based on what you mistakenly believe. You cannot possibly back that statement up with fact.
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30 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:
Not convinced the Lowland League will be serving up a higher standard.
Neither am I! For the most part, that is, other than the top 5 or 6.
But for the 1 year trial it will provide regular and reliable fixtures and players will be preparing for Saturday football in real matches against men.
Realistically, I expect they would reach T2 or T3 if allowed.
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10 minutes ago, peternapper said:
B teams would be ok if they played in a league of similar standard, other full time pro B teams.
That was the Reserve League, and it was chronic: not good enough.
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43 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:
And how many of them played for 'B' teams again?
And how many times would you like to miss the point?
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Rangers B 2021/22
in Lowland League
Posted
Ah ok then, so just cancel the whole thing?
The B teams are also used for players returning from injury.
Lionel Messi played 22 times for Barcelona B team - can you explain the downside to that one...? He's quite good likes.