Che Dail
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Posts posted by Che Dail
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On 13/06/2021 at 18:30, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:
Watched the England vs Croatia game, whats everyones thoughts on Colt Teams benefiting the national sides now? Especially keen to hear from the folks who used Croatia as an example.
Take a look at the FIFA world rankings and compare performance over the past 20 years as a more reliable measure than one match v England.
They reached 4th place in 1998, 7th in 2008 and 4th again in 2018. Their most recent ranking is 14th, which puts them in the top 10 sides at the Euros - whereas 14th is the highest placing for Scotland in 2007 over a twenty-odd year period.
Scotland is currently ranked 44th in the world, and 22nd out of 24 at this tournament.
It is right that we look to successful small countries like Croatia for ideas and inspiration. Adult B teams has been a part of their player pathway for many years.
That's not to say that 'B' Teams is the only answer, but suggests it is worth exploring. Bigger countries like Portugal (5th), Spain (6th), Italy (7th), Germany (12th), Netherlands (16th) all feature B teams in their league structures - and they all do international football and player development better than us.
https://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/associations/association/cro/men/
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1 hour ago, Jack Burton said:
If Kelty hadn't been promoted then they would have been playing with 19 clubs or are you suggesting they would have relegated a club to fit in the Old Firm Colts?
The points tally for all other teams in the league will include the games against the Old Firm Colts they are very much part of the Pyramid even if it is for one season.No, I think they'd probably have changed the rules to allow 19! No need for that to kick in now though, of course.
And yes, I agree in that respect - the results will have a bearing on the pyramid - Although if we're talking about the bottom 1 or 2 clubs, I suspect (going by the past few seasons results) it won't have much of a bearing on final standings in terms of points.
Others have argued it might affect promotion to SPFL, say if they beat one team at the top and not the other - which is fair, but is only guesswork at the moment - we'll know how competitive they are a few games in.
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10 hours ago, Jack Burton said:
A vote would have to take place at the AGM or EGM to change the relegation places so was exactly the right place. There was no relegation from the Lowland league when it was decided on PPG for 19/20.
It's an absolute farce that the LL have parachuted the Old Firm Colts straight into the tier 5 while keeping the door shut on the 100+ clubs in tier 6 and below, many who have been spending a fortune to get the licence to be able to play in the LL.I think there would need to have been a rule change proposed (possibly voted on before hand) and ratified at the AGM. I think we'd have known about it by now if that was the case.
If it wasn't on the Agenda, then it looks like it isn't happening this season - but presumably it could be covered by a Special General Meeting if one is called for this purpose (rules don't seem to use 'EGM' terminology).
For the inclusion of B teams: The maximum number of clubs will normally be sixteen (16) but may be increased temporarily to a maximum of eighteen (18) at the sole discretion of the Board.
I daresay, for the following season it could be increased 'temporarily' to eighteen again to accommodate additional clubs from WoS or EoS... but I'd have thought it would be better to stick to the max 16, and relegate more.
Also to clarify, the B teams are not being parachuted in to the pyramid - its a 1 year pilot and they can't be promoted, so strictly speaking, they are not actually in the pyramid.
RULES: https://slfl.co.uk/rules/lowland-league-rules/
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2 hours ago, Burnieman said:
If he is an innovative person who is passionate about ventilation in the pyramid, why does the LL still only have one relegation spot?
If this is the case, then my response would be: because the majority of clubs voted for the status quo on number of relegation spots (if there even was such a vote - not sure if an AGM is the right forum for it tbh ).
Anyhow, that decision is not at the behest of one person.
Last season the LL was decided on PPG, which (correct me if I'm wrong) means that a club WOULD have been relegated or 'ventilated' if a club had been put forward for promotion.
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54 minutes ago, Burnieman said:
If he is an innovative person who is passionate about ventilation in the pyramid, why does the LL still only have one relegation spot?
And yes, the WoS would still have happened without his involvement.
That said, some of the criticism towards him is way OTT.
Is that definitely the case - the 1 relegation spot...?
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25 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:
The EoSFL came about in its current format because of Kelty and the EoSFL accommodating them. Which led to the first wave of disenfranchised East Region clubs quietly going about researching the EoSFL and intending to apply the following season regardless.
George Fraser wasn't even an office holder in the LL at the time. Although raised his profile with the attempt by BSC to create a WoSFL during the 2017-18 season since BSC couldn't a reserve side into the Juniors. Which never actually went anywhere leaving Clydebank applying to the EoSFL, Kilwinning having a meeting that had 'EoS West Division' as an agenda topic, and plenty of chat about West clubs applying to the EoSFL or the EoSFL aiding the creation of a WoSFL.
So yeah, I think we would be exactly where we are right now. Just without 'B' teams in the Lowland League for 2021-22.
It is Kelty I am alluding to with reference to the EoS.
What you've described re the WoS is the initial planting of seeds which ultimately led to invitations being sought for new applicants - to be sent to George and / or John Greenhorn of the EoS.
My point is, debates around the formation of a WoS might still be punted back and forward on here, without leaders making formal moves to get it going.
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11 minutes ago, cowdenbeath said:
If an individual was to get credit for junior clubs moving over to the EOSL and the west sides eventually doing the same it would be Dean McKenzie at Kelty
He was the first to take the plunge and the rest eventually followed.
Yes, agree - but like I said, without bold and innovative people, where would we be?
So on the one hand, we laud Kelty and their leaders , and rightly so, but berate others who demonstrate similar characteristics.
BSC were well ahead of the game - entered the LL in 2014/15(?) I think all they had to do was apply.
So for all the complaints about the integrity of the pyramid...
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On 29/05/2021 at 16:27, LongTimeLurker said:
In a similar manner to Ken Ferguson in SPFL board terms, George Fraser is going to find that his influence on the game won't last because his club simply won't be able to hack it at tier 5 level over the medium to long term once the top west clubs start to arrive and even before that as more of the existing members from a non recent junior background get relegated other league officeholders may well be voted in. It's too bad Tom Johnston and co did what they did back in the 100k toilet block and holy grail era to allow this small clique of clubs to gain the unhealthy influence they currently have but eventually the damage will be undone.
There's a lot of unfounded and unfair (personal) criticism directed toward George Fraser.
Would the WoS league (and the pyramid in the West) even exist without his involvement?
He stood up to the plate and facilitated the thing, helped make it happen.
On the B teams: He explored an opportunity and pitched it to the other LL clubs. The majority agreed to the proposal in a vote.
But folk paint it like some authority figure has imposed something on others, which is quite clearly not the case.
Football needs bold and innovative people to take risks and test new ideas. Without this, would we even have an EoS in its current format?
Or would most still be in the Juniors on the outside?
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Just now, Gordon EF said:
Well I asked for the evidence that colt teams worked earlier. I'm always open to being educated..
I honestly don't think that you are - You've adopted a position and are entrenched in it. You're not alone in this, but that's part of the nature of the world - you don't have to agree with everything people say or do.
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Just now, Gordon EF said:
I'm not trying to prove how intelligent I am. I'm not sure not providing any evidence of my intelligence is the zinger you think it is.
2 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:Well it's either disingenuous or stupid. Take your pick.
Thanks for the choice. Although I wouldn't say you are stupid, maybe just a bit ignorant.
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1 hour ago, Gordon EF said:
It doesn't really take a genius to work it out though. I've been giving you a bit of credit and assuming you're being disingenuous, rather than stupid.
No, I took it that you were saying I am stupid.
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19 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:
Like what?
Exactly.
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55 minutes ago, Marten said:
There are 6 in total, 2 have a B-team in the third tier. Yet there are 34 full-time teams who have all been offered on more than one occasion to get a B-team in the structure, 22 of them never bothered and a further 6 joined but then pulled out after one or just a handful of seasons, usually stating that it wasn't having the desired effect.
It's a blended approach. In Scotland, what works for Rangers and Celtic might also be suitable for Hearts and Hibs but possibly not for Aberdeen or Dundee United.
Is the B team model in Holland exclusive to those 6 FT clubs? Is there an option, or freedom of choice, if another club wanted to test it?
Holland is over 3 times more populous than Scotland, with 34 full-time teams plus(?) 6x B teams.
Scotland has 22(ish) full-time teams (although I doubt that number is sustainable given the drop in attendances over the past 10-20 years).
Yet Rangers and Celtic clearly can sustain two squads of full-time players because they have the support and resources to do it. I daresay Hearts and Hibs could too. 4x B teams out of 22 FT clubs is an equivalent ratio to the situation in Holland.
It might work, it might not - but I think the option should be made available to try, and that's what they're attempting now.
An alternative to B teams is the 'Strategic Partnership' - like Stenhousemuir & Hibs have entered into. So if they relegate another club, say Cowdenbeath, using 6+ full time loan players on terms agreeable only to those clubs, (i.e. someone else is picking up their wages) does that support the principles of sporting merit, and the integrity of the pyramid? In this scenario, Stenny have effectively been 'doped' with the introduction of professional FT players. Is that fair and reasonable?
If we accept that the best full time youth players must be playing in a competitive football environment against men (best v best) in order to develop, I'm not sure that there's a right or wrong approach that doesn't have some effect on others.
Question is does the wider benefit outweigh the detrimental effect it might have on others? We won't know until we try. In year 1, nobody loses anything, and at the end of the season we get data to inform future choices.
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27 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:
Yeah, there's plenty of evidence that being a very good footballer doesn't necessarily mean you've smart or your opinions are worth listening to, even when it comes to football.
You're certainly putting up lots of evidence about your own level of intelligence.
Good for you
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12 minutes ago, Burnieman said:
It's done reputational damage both externally, and internally with the tier 6 leagues. Particularly as there appears to be no offer of increased promotion.
The Colts concept has taken a matter of weeks to happen, whilst it's been years we've been waiting for an increase in promotion and relegation spots.
That's not a good look, that doesn't strengthen relationships, or increase "ventilation".Yes - I don't disagree with any of that - it's all happened very quickly.
However, I don't think that damage to image and reputation, whether perceived or real, is a good enough reason in itself not to proceed. The member clubs have now voted and confirmed their decision after much deliberation, and those who voted against the proposal have accepted it and will move forward. Time will tell if it's a good decision or a bad one.
I'm not sure there definitely is no offer of increased promotion / relegation yet - when would this be discussed, agreed and announced(?)
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Just now, Burnieman said:41 minutes ago, Che Dail said:If a person said they'd spoken to Michael Reizeger, Luis van Gaal, Marco van Basten and Pieter Huistra, and feedback was positive (based on their experience having played and / or managed Ajax Jong) would you accept it?
And if it could be shown that Johan Cruyff supported B Teams at Barcelona and Ajax, would you still persist with your close-minded view?
We're talking about the best youth academy in Europe, one of the most successful club sides in the world and a Dutch legend.
But, naw.I'm really surprised you support this half-cocked nonsense and the damage it does to the reputation of the Pyramid.
But it doesn't do any damage whatsoever to the pyramid!!!
Life goes on as normal - nothing has changed with respect to promotion or relegation.
If the LL / EoS / WoS don't open up to 3 or 4 up and down, then I'd think that there's a problem with the integrity and reputation of the pyramid, but the OF B teams is a side issue to this matter.
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6 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:
They're not stupid. They're biased. So taking what they have to say on this matter as gospel is, I'm afraid, stupid.
ok Einstein
You're wasted on P&B, such a great mind.
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1 minute ago, Gordon EF said:
But you keep defending it on the basis of the opinion of people who work for clubs with colt sides. Which, to be fair, is stupid.
Yeah, it's really clever to ignore the likes of Marco van Basten, Louis van Gaal, Pep Guardiola, Steven Gerrard. What do they know about football, they're all stupid.
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5 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:
Is there any evidence that colt sides produces better players than say loaning players out or players gaining first team experience at smaller clubs before moving on to big clubs?
You're talking about all these experts and research, etc. Surely this is out there. By what margin can we expect the next generation of Scottish players to be better by introducing colt sides?
There is evidence that some countries are a lot better than Scotland at developing football players from youth to adult football. There is evidence that some clubs have the very best youth academies. In some of those countries, and at some of those clubs, B Teams play a part in the player pathway.
That is enough 'evidence', in my opinion, to explore if it's something worth trying here.
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13 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:
How many times do you have to be told that people who works for or with clubs with B teams are always going to say they're great? It's mind-numbingly obvious.
I didn't vote for it, so it's not me who 'needs to be told'.
I just support the idea of TRYING it on the basis of a 1 year pilot, which is what is being implemented in the Lowland League next season.
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Just now, morley said:
From the press reports I am still unclear as the term used seems to keep changing. Is it Colt Teams as in under 21 teams and if so what is the criteria ie an allowance for up to 3 players over 21, or is it adult B teams as in reserve teams? Who will be playing in the LL.
You don't have a clue because you've not even read the summary graphic that was circulated to all clubs and shared on here previously.
Is a phoney 'argument' you make because you haven't bothered to look into it yet.
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12 minutes ago, Marten said:
And there are plenty of voices against it as well, I'm not exactly the only one. And once again, even the people in favour would make clear the colt team part of the Dutch youth structure is just a small part of an extensive structure. NOTHING is being done by the OF about the actual issues around the youth/coaching structures, it's not even being discussed. But you just continue with your sh!te while ignoring actual arguments...
You asked if anyone has spoken to a Dutch person about the success or otherwise of B teams and I think we can agree with near 100% certainty that they have. And counterparts in Portugal, Spain, Germany, Croatia etc.
You don't even have an argument, nor are you willing to reason or listen to new ideas - you just say it's bad, and that's that.
The B teams proposal in Scotland IS a small part of an extensive youth coaching structure, not exclusive to the pro clubs but implemented by the SFA and community clubs across the country.
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47 minutes ago, Marten said:
I wonder how many people claiming it works in The Netherlands have ever spoken to a Dutch person on the matter or looked into the history with colt teams over there.
If a person said they'd spoken to Michael Reizeger, Luis van Gaal, Marco van Basten and Pieter Huistra, and feedback was positive (based on their experience having played and / or managed Ajax Jong) would you accept it?
And if it could be shown that Johan Cruyff supported B Teams at Barcelona and Ajax, would you still persist with your close-minded view?
We're talking about the best youth academy in Europe, one of the most successful club sides in the world and a Dutch legend.
But, naw.
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4 minutes ago, Spyro said:
In the 3 games I witnessed, Rovers (full of local players) absolutely smashed Fairydean (full of toonies) in every one... says everything really!
Only problem was trying to get the local boys to walk away from the Border Ammys, it means more to many of them than the EoS. Playing for your own town and loads of history/rivalry that isn’t there when you step “up”.
From what I remember, Selkirk’s purple patch around 2004 onwards for a few seasons (ok, hanging onto an EoS premier league place rather than wallowing in division 1) was based on a lot of local players, including a big chunk of Earlston’s amateur league winning team following their manager.
So it IS possible and there IS the talent down there to compete without blowing the budget.
All interesting points - helps makes the case for regionalizing the lowest tier...?
I'd have thought it would be a more attractive prospect for Duns / Kelso / Selkirk / Eyemouth to return to a more local EoS league. Plus if there was scope to include top ams teams even if they don't fully meet current ground criteria (on the basis that they can't be promoted until they do) then it could be to everyone's advantage, without killing off the ams league itself.
Selkirk made a right midden of it in the end with their crazy budget - If they'd stuck to what works with local lads there would still be a club.
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Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?
in Lowland League
Posted
JEEZO (slams head on desk).