Livingston - all the threads merged

[The Wrong Car]

I'd say Parkes. Bahamboula, either Brandon or Welch-Hayes, Bitsindou and possibly Boyes (similar to Mullin loan recall/transfer last year) could be leaving. Is De Lucas injured? If not, he may also be on the way out given he's not played recently. The fact Montano came on at RWB over two natural RBs last game says a lot about Martindale's thoughts on his two RB options

It's encouraging that Martindale seems to be suggesting this guy is essentially providing squad depth to allow reinforcements up front, however it's going to need to be a hell of a signing to get us out this mess

Edited December 19, 2023 by The Wrong Car

[LiviLion]

I like to think we're signing him purely to wind up Derek Adams

[LIVIFOREVER]

Needing someone to replace Devlin's attacking abilities up the right wing, both Montano and Penrice offer that on the left, but neither is naturally suited switching over to the right. Think Nottingham could be an option but we'd need De Lucas fit replacing him on the right of a back 3, the defensive area has fecked us up all season with the amount of injuries we've had there, and not able to play a settled back 3. The knock on effect having to move players around trying to patch up our defence has knackered us in attack too. So can see both being a lot better if this fella comes in and makes it a more settled back line. 

[LIVIFOREVER]

15 minutes ago, The Wrong Car said:

I'd say Parkes. Bahamboula, either Brandon or Welch-Hayes, Bitsindou and possibly Boyes (similar to Mullin loan recall/transfer last year) could be leaving. Is De Lucas injured? If not, he may also be on the way out given he's not played recently. The fact Montano came on at RWB over two natural RBs last game says a lot about Martindale's thoughts on his two RB options

It's encouraging that Martindale seems to be suggesting this guy is essentially providing squad depth to allow reinforcements up front, however it's going to need to be a hell of a signing to get us out this mess

I think we've got the players to have a better attack, but the problems with injuries in defence has meant we're not fielding them in a set up to do so. Fannying around with Nouble and Anderson isn't helping, nor having St Kelly and Anderson as subs most games. Having a more settled back line will hopefully allow Martindale to get a front 3 (in whatever formation he chooses) of St Kelly, Anderson & Nouble/Guthrie. Maybe see Bradley getting some game time too.

Everything just now is focused on defence, to the detriment of our attack.

[LIVIFOREVER]

6 hours ago, Freedom Farter said:

That was the home match against Motherwell. It's the only time this season Martindale has started Pittman and Holt together at centre mid and they dominated (even prior to the Motherwell sending off).

Christ that looks a great attacking line up, with the pace of MacKay down that right wing too. 

The slow build up, and punt up to Guthrie, just isn't getting the best out of Anderson. I'd love to see us putting balls down the channels for our WB's and/or Anderson to chase, or working it quickly down the wing for Anderson to peel off and get into the box for a ball in the 6 yard box. And if Nouble is playing, trying to get him to hit the byeline and take defenders on like he used to do, and not lazy diagonal balls making it easy for CB's to clear.

Nouble made a great run against Killie on Saturday and had their defenders on toast, but instead of keeping going and hitting the byeline, he just hit a diagonal cross in which was easily dealt with. We know he's brilliant when going all the way to the byeline, then cutting across, really frustrating that he rarely does it.

Edited December 19, 2023 by LIVIFOREVER

[D'Jaffo]

39 minutes ago, The Wrong Car said:

I'd say Parkes. Bahamboula, either Brandon or Welch-Hayes, Bitsindou and possibly Boyes (similar to Mullin loan recall/transfer last year) could be leaving. Is De Lucas injured? If not, he may also be on the way out given he's not played recently. The fact Montano came on at RWB over two natural RBs last game says a lot about Martindale's thoughts on his two RB options

It's encouraging that Martindale seems to be suggesting this guy is essentially providing squad depth to allow reinforcements up front, however it's going to need to be a hell of a signing to get us out this mess

If Brandon is deemed surplus then I’d hope we’re all over that given our issues at right back. 

[LIVIFOREVER]

10 minutes ago, D'Jaffo said:

If Brandon is deemed surplus then I’d hope we’re all over that given our issues at right back. 

Think Brandon is doing alright for us, just with the defensive injuries we've had Martindale is shoehorning different players in at RWB to fit some weird gameplans he has devised to try shitfest results. Playing Nouble at RWB, Sean Kelly in defensive midfield, and Pittman up front, while Brandon, Stephen Kelly, and Bruce Anderson sit on the bench, gives you an idea how crazy we've been this season.

*edit, Is Jack McMillan injured, he always did well for us playing RB/RWB, and was equally good on the left side of defence too?

Edited December 19, 2023 by LIVIFOREVER

[Freedom Farter]

Donnellan played right centre back in a three both this season and last for Torquay.

Here's a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvbSc83FO78&ab_channel=CSNFootballVideos

[Freedom Farter]

1 hour ago, Livi La Vida Loca said:

https://livingstonfc.co.uk/welcome-shaun-donnellan/

New signing joining on the 1st of Jan. Shaun Donnellan a RB/RWB from Torquay. 

Quote from Davie: “He will bring a lot of versatility to the squad and that should allow us to move 1 or 2 on in the defensive areas, while focusing our recruitment more in the offensive areas now that we know we have Shaun over the line."

Would think Parkes is one to be moved on but not sure who else. Bitsindou is still on the books but my understanding was that he was free to leave whenever so possibly Welch-Hayes to leave? 

I doubt Parkes can be shifted. He's not going to forego his wage with us and no other club will match it so we're likely stuck with him until May.

Donnellan looks to be either a right centre back in a three or a defensive right back in a four. That's exactly the tactical profile of Welch-Hayes and De Lucas so I expect one or both of them to be pushed out next month.

[Freedom Farter]

28 minutes ago, D'Jaffo said:

If Brandon is deemed surplus then I’d hope we’re all over that given our issues at right back. 

No chance of you getting Brandon as he's our only natural right wing back and he plays regularly. If its a right back for a back four you need then Welch-Hayes will probably be available for loan. He's looked good for us when he's played but he's hardly had a look in due to squad competition. He's solid defensively but offers little going forward. Very much a defensive full back. 

[TUECA]

Is a pretty odd signing to be honest (I am a Torquay fan living in Scotland for 15 years).

He is versatile and can play centre back, right back or centre midfield. He played mainly as a right back or right of a back three for us. He's probably one of those players where everyone will say something different for where his best position is.

We are in a mess as a club however, playing in the 6th tier, which is a regional league. He joined us last year and played most weeks as we got relegated from the 5th division, which has some part time sides. The 6th tier has three full time sides and 21 part time sides.

I was suprised to see Angus MacDonald join Aberdeen last January, but he was phenomenal for us at a higher level and moved to the Championship in England for six figures in between. It was just the decline and health issues between that made me question if he could step back up.

So a bit stunned by this to see him go to Livi, as number 2 squad number. He's not a bad player by any means but I was expecting him to go to Bromley, Wealdstone, Boreham Wood or somewhere similar in the South East when he left us.

Will be watching closely and wish him well, but genuinely a bit shocked by this as he's not really stood out in quality in the last 18 months as someone who should be playing higher. He may be better in a better side but I can't see what the Livi management are seeing at this point in time.

[RandomGuy.]

4 hours ago, TUECA said:

Will be watching closely and wish him well, but genuinely a bit shocked by this as he's not really stood out in quality in the last 18 months as someone who should be playing higher. He may be better in a better side but I can't see what the Livi management are seeing at this point in time.

Stats wise it makes him look like hes a good player in a poor team?

Strong defensive scores, especially aerially, and high goal threat scores, feels very much on brand for Livingston defensive targets?

Seems like hes well suited and capable of playing either as a CB or RB too.

[larry the lion]

A Torquay fan forum https://torquayfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17664&sid=1c491b71de194d98031ae1a57b74f2cb&p=276842#p276842

[Freedom Farter]

4 hours ago, TUECA said:

Is a pretty odd signing to be honest (I am a Torquay fan living in Scotland for 15 years).

He is versatile and can play centre back, right back or centre midfield. He played mainly as a right back or right of a back three for us. He's probably one of those players where everyone will say something different for where his best position is.

We are in a mess as a club however, playing in the 6th tier, which is a regional league. He joined us last year and played most weeks as we got relegated from the 5th division, which has some part time sides. The 6th tier has three full time sides and 21 part time sides.

I was suprised to see Angus MacDonald join Aberdeen last January, but he was phenomenal for us at a higher level and moved to the Championship in England for six figures in between. It was just the decline and health issues between that made me question if he could step back up.

So a bit stunned by this to see him go to Livi, as number 2 squad number. He's not a bad player by any means but I was expecting him to go to Bromley, Wealdstone, Boreham Wood or somewhere similar in the South East when he left us.

Will be watching closely and wish him well, but genuinely a bit shocked by this as he's not really stood out in quality in the last 18 months as someone who should be playing higher. He may be better in a better side but I can't see what the Livi management are seeing at this point in time.

We tried to sign Donnellan last summer when he was a fifth tier player so I imagine he's still being viewed more as that rather than a sixth tier player. We've signed a couple of gems from the National League before (Max Stryjek from Eastleigh and Joel Nouble from Aldershot) as well as a dud (Harrison Panayiotou from Aldershot). We likely have a similar budget as Hamilton when they were in the Premiership and they used to sign players from the English sixth tier, some of whom were moderately successful. Our first choice right centre back (Michael Nottingham) has injury issues so my guess is Donnellan has been signed to cover there.

[mozam76]

5 hours ago, TUECA said:

We are in a mess as a club however

Will be watching closely.

You poor, poor bugger. 

[ATLIS]

Sounds to me like Martindale sees him as first choice RB/RWB, Welch-Hayes didn't work out and neither did Brandon. Given that he can cover CM/CB it likely means we can comfortably let go of:

Bitsindou (CDM/CM/CB)
Bahamboula (RW/RWB)
Welch-Hayes/Brandon (RB/RWB)
MacKay may stay back at Hibs with his injury (RW/RWB/RB)
Danny Lloyd, contract expiry (LB/LWB)
Boyes/Luiyi/Parkes, one of those, likely Boyes I'd imagine but he may just stay on loan (CB)

That would hopefully open up the wages for 6 spaces, or condensed into 3-4 quality signings. You would imagine that would cover:

RB/RWB/CB/CM - Donnellan
CM - ?
RW - ?
ST - ?

The left side of the team is arguably our strongest point, down that wing with Penrice and Nouble, with Montano as cover. The right side has been terrible all season. We need a bit more legs in the middle, Shinnie isn't cutting it and Pittman's ability is fading fast. Stephen Kelly at CAM, Holt and Sangare in behind would work for me IMO but a new midfielder is probably needed as cover. 



I think this is probably our strongest starting side at the minute but playing it is another thing. I'd rather see us return to something like the 433 that worked previously for us.

[TUECA]

2 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Stats wise it makes him look like hes a good player in a poor team?

Strong defensive scores, especially aerially, and high goal threat scores, feels very much on brand for Livingston defensive targets?

Seems like hes well suited and capable of playing either as a CB or RB too.

I don't think he's a bad player at all, he is pretty solid in tier six and did ok last year a division higher. He's been one of our better players in that time, but not jumping out as someone about to make a rise like that.

I wouldn't actually say he's fantastic in the air, 6 ft 2 is ok but nothing huge in the modern game. His best skill is taking the ball forward from the back and bursting past a player to launch an attack. On the counter side he's part of a defence that has been pretty appalling for 18 months and he has played his part in that. Three goals in 68 games is about what you might expact from his position.

It was more that we turn over about 20 players a year and not many move upwards sadly, it's why we're currently on a downwards trajectory for 3 years in a row. I was either expecting him to either hang around another year or two or move back to another South East team in and around the National League/South. He moved to us after time at Woking and Maidenhead. He does seem to move around every year or two, so may just be time, but I didn't see Livingston coming.

He is also 27, so unlikely to improve as you might if he were a bit younger. Overall I suppose I would say there would be quite a few others I rate higher in tiers 5/6 so picking someone to step up, I wasnt expecting it to be him.

Edited December 19, 2023 by TUECA

[Freedom Farter]

10 minutes ago, ATLIS said:

Sounds to me like Martindale sees him as first choice RB/RWB

That's possible. in 18/19 we had Rickie Lamie as a wing back and while he wasn't much of an attacking force, Dolly Menga would peel out wide left ahead of him. That could be done with Donnellan. He could play as a more defensive right wing back and either Nouble, McKay or Bradley could instead provide the high width on the right ahead of him. Martindale would have to start playing two up front to facilitate that, though.

[ATLIS]

27 minutes ago, TUECA said:

I don't think he's a bad player at all, he is pretty solid in tier six and did ok last year a division higher. He's been one of our better players in that time, but not jumping out as someone about to make a rise like that.

I wouldn't actually say he's fantastic in the air, 6 ft 2 is ok but nothing huge in the modern game. His best skill is taking the ball forward from the back and bursting past a player to launch an attack. On the counter side he's part of a defence that has been pretty appalling for 18 months and he has played his part in that. Three goals in 68 games is about what you might expact from his position.

It was more that we turn over about 20 players a year and not many move upwards sadly, it's why we're currently on a downwards trajectory for 3 years in a row. I was either expecting him to either hang around another year or two or move back to another South East team in and around the National League/South. He moved to us after time at Woking and Maidenhead. He does seem to move around every year or two, so may just be time, but I didn't see Livingston coming.

He is also 27, so unlikely to improve as you might if he were a bit younger. Overall I suppose I would say there would be quite a few others I rate higher in tiers 5/6 so picking someone to step up, I wasnt expecting it to be him.

That part is the one that makes this make sense to me, we lost a defender in the summer that had that as his biggest attribute and the team has struggled offensively on that side since. 

I feel you with the overturn of players, we're very similar. It's nearly a new squad every season. We essentially play 5 at the back, so he can bomb forward without worrying too much about the defensive side behind him with 3 CBs there. 

If he's got pace, can just get up and down the wing and occasionally swing a cross in then he doesn't need to do too much more.

[Livi La Vida Loca]

11 hours ago, ATLIS said:

I'd rather see us return to something like the 433 that worked previously for us.

Wholeheartedly agree. 

Even when it was likely Nouble was leaving I'd say this was the best setup. Our defence has been at times ropey on our return to the top flight but for the most part it's been solid enough. Yet after being lowest scorers in the league last year Martindale opted for the switch to 5 at the back and while I understand it's a good setup for certain games it just shouldn't be our permanent formation. 

Even with an injury crisis at centre back he's continued to persist with 3 centre backs and thus we've seen a lot of the square pegs round holes from Martindale. 

I think his whole versatility mantra was born out of covid where he needed to have it but now I swear he'd choose someone who can play 5 positions over the player who's far better but just in the one position.