Livingston - all the threads merged

[AND180Y]

The website is moving to a new host and will be online sometime soon although there's probably no real hurry due to it being the close season.

now with Xcalibre, Massone must have more money than sense!!

[banjo player]

My source has informed me that the server went down for an upgrade/maintainance about a fortnight ago. It came back up but the web guy needed to tweak some settings to get it online. Apparently he has received threats from a certain section of the support due to his backing of Massone and has disappeared. No-one can get reach him by email or phone.

The website is moving to a new host and will be online sometime soon although there's probably no real hurry due to it being the close season.

Anyone tried chapping his door? Or is his door in Rome?

[Guest]

But how could the council insist on receiving the full development value and then not allow the new owner to develop the land or sell it on for development?

Surely the value the council require is the present value of the rental income they forgo by selling? With the proviso being that the land must be continued to be used as a football stadium, thereby preventing the new owner from developing it or from using its development value to borrow against?

By that. I meant they shouldn't sell it to him at all. Now, if the stadium was picking up 150k a year in rent, and the council plan to drop it 50k, then that's 100k that has to be found from elsewhere. Also, if I had rented property in West Lothian, and times were tough, I'd want a drop in my rent of 66% too. Well worth a tester of a court case......and someone just might do that very thing.

However, I bet you anything you like Massone wants the stadium for something like the equivalent of three years rent. He needs a huge gap between what he pays, and what he can borrow. That is how it works.

There have been cases similar to this in mainland Europe (and the UK) in the past. Public land is sold for a pittance and moved on for fortune or borrowed against. The company doing the borrowing defaults on the payment, and the land/buildings fall into the grasp of the liquidators. However, the cash borrowed has simply disappeared from the accounts, and the people who took it can't be touched, because the liability sits with the company, not the individuals concerned. There usually has to be "someone on the inside" during the phase of transfer from public ownership, to private ownership. The new owner has to be a company rather than an individual. An individual has to have access to the funds raised by using the property as security. The individual has to be happy to lose the company and the property by defaulting payment in exchange for whatever borrowed funs can be channeled away from the company prior to that default.

That is Asset Stripping 101, and has happened many many times in various guises. It has been done with very small amounts of personal money being utilized.

In Livingston's case, if the council terms and conditions ain't absolutely watertight, they'll be pretty easily bypassed by any lawyer worth his salt. I reckon the council terms and conditions will be the fly in Massone's ointment, and a barrier he must eliminate.

[banjo player]

The company doing the borrowing defaults on the payment, and the land/buildings fall into the grasp of the liquidators. However, the cash borrowed has simply disappeared from the accounts, and the people who took it can't be touched, because the liability sits with the company, not the individuals concerned. There usually has to be "someone on the inside" during the phase of transfer from public ownership, to private ownership. The new owner has to be a company rather than an individual. An individual has to have access to the funds raised by using the property as security. The individual has to be happy to lose the company and the property by defaulting payment in exchange for whatever borrowed funs can be channeled away from the company prior to that default.

Like agent's fees for example? What does Massone do for a living? Psst! I'll set them up, you knock them in.

With regard to the value of the stadium, I really can't see Massone getting it for a pittance. The scenario described above surely only works if there is a hope value attached to the asset which the Valuation Office can conveniently ignore if the council ask them to value it (and ignore it). Otherwise there must surely be accounting regulations for local authorities that oblige them to use the RICS Red Book.

Edited May 20, 2009 by banjo player

[Guest]

Like agent's fees for example? What does Massone do for a living? Psst! I'll set them up, you knock them in.

With regard to the value of the stadium, I really can't see Massone getting it for a pittance. The scenario described above surely only works if there is a hope value attached to the asset which the Valuation Office can conveniently ignore if the council ask them to value it (and ignore it). Otherwise there must surely be accounting regulations for local authorities that oblige them to use the RICS Red Book.

There is. However, the red book has been (and continues to be) circumvented due to lack of oversight, and permutations not considered (or conveniently overlooked) at the time of the evaluation. I guess in the current economic climate, it would be much harder to do than 24 months ago. Banks are back in the 1970s wrt who they lend to, and the security required. A football stadium is difficult to value, but having said that, the land and its development potential shouldn't be.

That the council seem already to have decided upon a two thirds drop in rent shows that councils can independently play around with revenue streams if not assets.

If he can't get the stadium, then he'll be offski. Livvy have had smaller attendances than everyone in the first division apart from Clyde and Airdrie despite them being there or thereabouts for a good part of the season. If he got the club believing they were some sort of sleeping giant, and crowds of 8,000 or 10,000 were there to be had for a an spl side, and 4000 to 5000 for a competitive first division side, then this season's attendances of 1700 or so will have changed that outlook. Financially, he will be swallowing hard right now. Their income simply cannot be meeting their costs....not by a long shot.

If my mob drop down next week, and Ayr overcome Airdrie, then it's very likely that minus their best players from this season, Livvy will find themselves the minnows in the first division pond. If nothing changes, in league alongside a resurgent Dundee, Falkirk, Dunfemline, Morton, Partick Thistle, Ross County, Raith Rovers, Ayr Utd and QotS, the team with the smallest attendances will probably be Livingston.

Edited May 20, 2009 by Guest

[MCL]

Anyone tried chapping his door? Or is his door in Rome?

I don't think he has a door in Rome. The club were concerned for his welfare due to lack of communication so sent someone to his house. They spoke to his mum and she assured them he was ok but couldn't carry on due to the threats.

[MCL]

If my mob drop down next week...

If ? If ? If you play like you did against St Mirren it's a certainty

[Guest]

If ? If ? If you play like you did against St Mirren it's a certainty

No argument from me there. As the old joke goes, we were lucky to get nil.

Edited May 20, 2009 by Guest

[Fife Saint]

Take note Calum....

[Charles Darwin Esq]

I don't think he has a door in Rome. The club were concerned for his welfare due to lack of communication so sent someone to his house. They spoke to his mum and she assured them he was ok but couldn't carry on due to the threats.

You being serious???

[banjo player]

I don't think he has a door in Rome. The club were concerned for his welfare due to lack of communication so sent someone to his house. They spoke to his mum and she assured them he was ok but couldn't carry on due to the threats.

Apologies.

I didn't realise the seriousness of the matter.

Edited May 21, 2009 by banjo player

[Chuckinho]

I hope folk aren't bring threatened.

Part of me wonders if this is some sort of smoke screen to deflect attention from the main issue.

Edited May 21, 2009 by Chuckinho

[Guest Wall E]

For real? Your 'source' wasn't able to name and shame the supporters who threatened him by any chance?

No names then? Edited May 21, 2009 by Wall E

[MCL]

You being serious???

Of course. It's not a joking matter.

[AND180Y]

I've got a free evening on Thursday, so sod it, I'm go along.

So what happened?

[ObserverFromAfar]

So what happened?

Some notes and commentary on the Livilions site

http://www.livilions.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=16068

Some highlights from those postings:

- the desire to have 300 season tickets sold by the end of next week (end of may & payday again...) to prevent something bad happening - potentially administration.

- standard stuff on Massone pleading for bridges to be built;

- the money to buy the stadium is from a source that will not provide money to pay the current debts;

- the Trust put in an inflated £2 bid to buy the club.

Edited May 21, 2009 by ObserverFromAfar

[Guest]

Some notes and commentary on the Livilions site

http://www.livilions.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=16068

Some highlights from those postings:

- the desire to have 300 season tickets sold by the end of next week (end of may & payday again...) to prevent something bad happening - potentially administration.

- standard stuff on Massone pleading for bridges to be built;

- the money to buy the stadium is from a source that will not provide money to pay the current debts;

- the Trust put in an inflated £2 bid to buy the club.

What you see above is basically it.

There were a few ragged tempers (as you would expect, emotions were running higher than the Livi norm). In essence, Massone was not the great persuasive orator I imagined him to be. People have spoken of looking into his eyes and "believing in him". Well, albeit from a distance, I looked into his eyes, and I saw a rabbit in the headlights. The guy quite simply knows that the game is up barring people giving him 300 times 200 quid pretty pronto. There is no instalment plan, so he wants the money up front, and in simple terms, those who have already paid stand a good chance of losing their money as administration is a very real possibility. It's not a great leap to see why he needs 60k in a hurry. Thing is, it ain't about financing next season's campaign.

He basically came up with a chicken and egg scenario whereby he won't put money into the club unless the supporters do it first, and even if they do, it'll buy a close season (tops). He was trying to dress it as test of supporters desire rather than a desperate attempt to raise cash to pay short term bills (which it was).

Not knowing the personnel, but I'm assuming the ex chip shop chain manageress is the "Director of Operations".

What became strikingly clear (maybe only to me) is that Hegarty's suspension is nothing more than a ploy to prevent paying him what he is due.

The stadium purchase conversation (brief as it was), was a primary school masterclass in evasion. That money can't be used to pay debts because its different money (which means its either venture capital from elsewhere looking for a big chunk of change in interest), or it simply doesn't actually exist. My bet is it is the latter.

The Trust (officially or otherwise) offered him a 100% profit by offering two quid for the club. You couldn't exactly cut the atmosphere with a knife at that point, but there were a few raised hackles.

The night (although I had to scoot off a wee bit early) was pretty much a desperate Italian asking Scottish football supporters to trust him and give him their money with absolutely no guarantees that it would achieve anything whatsoever.

His masterplan seems to consist of creating an "academy" for the district (yep, another all conquering academy vision). Hardly original or believable to be honest.

I left with a sense of having spent part of an evening watching a drowning man trying to bullsh1t the rescue ship into believing he was an accomplished and wealthy swimmer. He and Livingston FC are in trouble.......and his stories to the press that all was well, pretty much matched up with his revisionist views of when things really started to go wrong........it was all a long way from the truth. It is the manner in which the man (and those around him) can spin out was amounts to utter fabrication in such an off the cuff way. Makes The Apprentice contestants seem like pillars of integrity.

Tell you one thing. If anyone had indeed offered 300k for Griffiths, he would have been sold today. No question.

So.................clarity and transparency remain as elusive as ever down Almondvale way. if anyone in the room bought into his vision, then I'm sure those self same people bought into timeshare, Amway, and Kirby vacuum cleaners.

Tonight was more about emotional blackmail than drumming up business. I also had a sense that a good percentage of the people there were amongst the 130 or so brave souls who have already bought a season ticket.

He also seemed to have a revised plan for getting back to the SPL. It's now a 4 to 5 year vision. if they survive, they are likely to be either second bottom or bottom of the attendances league. They will almost certainly have a poor squad of players. They will have virtually no room to manouevre financially. A fight against relegation is almost inevitable. The folks of West Lothian have pulls to Hibs and Hearts and Rangers and Celtic. They don't do SFL1 relegation scraps. Under Keane, the support supplied 30% of what was spent. They are now expected to provide near enough all of it. Those who followed Livvy in ye olde days got some of the best season tickets deals going, and a team on the rise. They left because of the debt and a struggling team. Now that they are struggling more than ever, they ain't going to come back and pay more to see a club on the slide. Massone might be a lawyer, but he no grasp of business principles.

Set aside the lying, and it's the same reason that the Trust are not embraced. Both Massone and the Trust want the punters to be the determining factor in what the club spends. Livingston have never operated this way. They still want someone (anyone) to put personal fortunes into their club, and pay off the debts.

They will back owners with everything but money. In the case of Massone, its hard to escape the sense that they are right to keep their money in their pockets. It's damn near impossible to believe a word the man says.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Guest

[banjo player]

Thanks Duncan

That is a superb summary of events that deserves a Pulitzer prize.

Emotional blackmail is a card played by club boards up and down the country at regular intervals and it's a favourite at Firhill. It is astonishing that Massone believes that having messed people around he can empty their pockets to keep the club going. What is even more astonishing is that there are 130 people who were prepared to allow him.

Being charitable, these are the disciples of Massone, the easy sell for him. He is now asking the people that he banned from Almondvale, the ones who he prevented seeing the players at their player of the year event and the ones whose small business bills he hasn't paid, to buy season tickets. The plot has been well and truly lost and it's a shame for the genuine supporters.

On the upside, it looks like the Jags will be playing Airdrie again next season regardless of Sunday's result. Welcome to Ayr United, hope that Spartans get the nod this time.

[Guest]

Thanks Duncan

That is a superb summary of events that deserves a Pulitzer prize.

Emotional blackmail is a card played by club boards up and down the country at regular intervals and it's a favourite at Firhill. It is astonishing that Massone believes that having messed people around he can empty their pockets to keep the club going. What is even more astonishing is that there are 130 people who were prepared to allow him.

Being charitable, these are the disciples of Massone, the easy sell for him. He is now asking the people that he banned from Almondvale, the ones who he prevented seeing the players at their player of the year event and the ones whose small business bills he hasn't paid, to buy season tickets. The plot has been well and truly lost and it's a shame for the genuine supporters.

On the upside, it looks like the Jags will be playing Airdrie again next season regardless of Sunday's result. Welcome to Ayr United, hope that Spartans get the nod this time.

Too many of the support are still clinging on to the idea that their club are deserving of some rich person throwing money at them.

Thing is, Pearse Flynn was very very smart in disclosing only what he was asked to disclose. I feel there was a "jumping in with both feet" by Massone et al because they thought they were getting some sort of bargain.

Well, now they know differently. There were no figures, no financial forecasts, no cohesive business plans. Just buy the stadium with the magic beans and a cow, build this "academy", and there it is, a super club in the making.

More than anything, the support need a paradigm shift in their thinking as to what Livingston FC actually are. There's talk that "we must unite to go forward". It's rhetoric, nothing more. What does "unite" mean? Is it "give Massone money"? Is it "back the trust"? To be honest, the supporters simply do not know, and are pretty close to blaming one another.

There are actually two big problems. Massone's ineptitude is one, and a support that repeatedly stalls in accepting what they really are.

There's a superficial acceptance that they aren't a new model army after all, but there seems to be that perpetual "yes but" hanging off the end of that acceptance. It always seems to take the form of "yes, but if we get a new investor prepared to pump in the money, we will support him".

Rome is burning brightly, but in Livingston, procrastination rules the roost. It's seems staggeringly obvious from a dispassionate viewpoint that Massone does not have a clue what he is doing, and any agenda he might have is almost certainly at odds with what he should be doing. Yet there remains those who will forgive him anything. There is even a voice being given to the idea of the Trust giving their money to Massone.....seriously.

There was a famous (if roundly debunked) quote from a Roman Centurion(?) (Gaius Petronius Arbiter). The origins of the quotation aren't important. The quotation itself however, seems to capture the essence of Livingston to a tee.

"We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning

to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later

in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing,

and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress

while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization".

"Unite and move the club forward" sits in there very comfortably indeed. Livingston don't need to "re-organize". They need to start again as a Trust based club.

[MCL]

Thing is, Pearse Flynn was very very smart in disclosing only what he was asked to disclose. I feel there was a "jumping in with both feet" by Massone et al because they thought they were getting some sort of bargain.

I certainly think that Massone jumped in without due care and attention although he had, at that time, a couple of wealthy backers who have since disappeared. Pearse disclosed everything in the bill of sale so to say he held back other stuff isn't true IMO.

I think the "Trust" showed their true colours last night by offering £2 to buy the club. Their public face has always been that the business plan is only a safety net if we go into admin. The offer shows how desperate they are to get their hands on the club, perhaps even desperate enough to threaten club employees who support Massone ?

What if Massone had accepted the deal ? It means they would also be buying the club's debts which runs into six figures. How would they go about clearing those debts and getting the club onto an even keel? Since formation in 2004 they have raised around £20,000 in total, hardly enough to pay the salaries for a month. To critisise Massone for not following due dilligence then jumping in with an offer before they have studied the club's financies shows they are no better than he is.