Livingston - all the threads merged

[Tonsilitis]

The galling bit is that a significant chunk of the support wouldn't bat an eye if the club went into administration again and debts went unpaid. In such a situation (a club entering administration in little over 5 years with creditors getting something like 3p in the pound last time round, and no league or points penalties applied), then really, in a competitive league environment, Livingston shouldn't be able to hold on to SFL1 status at the expense of another club who haven't indulged in such financial mis-management.

If it happens, it really needs to be a watershed moment in what the SFL accepts as fit and proper behaviour from its member clubs. Coming into existance and casting aside creditors is one thing. Running up unmanagable debt in less than 10 years to get to the SPL was quite another.

To have the slate wiped clean only five short years ago, and then proceed to run up unmanageable debt yet again and then run for hills to once more get the administrators to get that debt written off would simply have to be seen as some sort of ethical line being crossed.

Lets hope that it doesn't come to that, and this time, Livingston pay what they owe. If I were a West Lothian ratepayer, I think I'd also be taking more than a passing interest in what my council is up to in the weeks ahead.

I think its the case that if they did go into administration, it would the for the third time in ten years! You are dead right, there is a real credibility problem for the SFA/SFL if that went unpunished.

The other issue might be in terms of any potential administrator convincing the court to let an admin order happen. Given the history , they may well say no and dish out a winding up order.

Jimbo is also right - an administrator would need something to work with, not the least of which is a source from which he can get paid!

[Skyline Drifter]

I think its the case that if they did go into administration, it would the for the third time in ten years! You are dead right, there is a real credibility problem for the SFA/SFL if that went unpunished.

I don't think it would. It would only be a second time (not that that makes things ok!).

[Guest]

I think its the case that if they did go into administration, it would the for the third time in ten years! You are dead right, there is a real credibility problem for the SFA/SFL if that went unpunished.

The other issue might be in terms of any potential administrator convincing the court to let an admin order happen. Given the history , they may well say no and dish out a winding up order.

Jimbo is also right - an administrator would need something to work with, not the least of which is a source from which he can get paid!

That's why I reckon that if they can get a quick sale for Griffiths, then the funds from that can be diverted away from the club. After that, then it wouldn't really matter too much.

I'm sure I read somewhere that one of the Italians was in Perth as soon as the deal for McKay and Davidson was done in the hope that he could pick up the transfer cash. It sounded too ridiculous to be true. Don't know if anyone else heard or read this.

[Guest strathbrock]

That's why I reckon that if they can get a quick sale for Griffiths, then the funds from that can be diverted away from the club. After that, then it wouldn't really matter too much.

I'm sure I read somewhere that one of the Italians was in Perth as soon as the deal for McKay and Davidson was done in the hope that he could pick up the transfer cash. It sounded too ridiculous to be true. Don't know if anyone else heard or read this.

Yes, I am told this is what happened. It was also reported in one of the papers. The money was then allegedly used to pay the players their their April salaries and probably the rent instalment to the council. They have been dropping hints all over the place of an "exciting" announcement soon. I dread to think what it could be TBH. We will no doubt be enlightened on Thursday.

[Guest]

I don't think it would. It would only be a second time (not that that makes things ok!).

Yes, it would be a second time. although the Hunter to Keane deal (either that or the Meadowbank to Livvy deal) involved the jettisoning of existing creditors without payment.

[Guest]

Yes, I am told this is what happened. It was also reported in one of the papers. The money was then allegedly used to pay the players their their April salaries and probably the rent instalment to the council. They have been dropping hints all over the place of an "exciting" announcement soon. I dread to think what it could be TBH. We will no doubt be enlightened on Thursday.

I would imagine there would be some tax/VAT implications in that 45k deal. Livi's monthly wage bill has got to be around the 45k a mark.........that's only 20 people on 500 a week, so I'm not too sure there would have been siufficient funds to pay everyone and the monthly rent.

Gate receipts for a month (based on two home games) can only have been of the order of 800 pay at the gate punters per game. That would bring in roughly 30k a month. In all probability, Livvy have been losing 20k to 30k a month for the entire season. The belief by some is that Massone has been pumping money in to cover this, but I don't know if that's strictly true, or if overdraft facilities have been maxxed out, and it's simply a matter of non payment for just about every other invoice that comes along.

I'm sure Massone will be looking for purchase of the stadium based on the rent no longer being considered rent......he'd want it reduced, and it to be considered as payment for the stadium, and in turn, the stadium being sold to him for nothing, or for the equivalent of a couple of years rent.

He'll be reliant upon the conditions the council put on the sale being weak or ambiguious.

Thursday's exciting announcement is likely to be another bout of delaying tactics that the owners will hope to be inspiring and vague in equal measure.

I'm actually tempted to go along to this one myself.

[banjo player]

Duncan,

You are more generous in your support for the sensible Livi fans that I could ever hope to be and I salute you for that.

As for the Livi fans that have yet to wake up and smell the cappucino...I won't be at the vale next year if that madman is still, by some freak of coincidence, in control of your club...he ain't getting any more of my cash.

[WendyWho?]

I'm trying to do a bit of cursory digging on Massone and he seems to be a bit of an enigma.

I find it odd that such a "prominent" Italian "businessman" should have no apparent profile...

Out of interest, does anyone know how old he is or where he purports to be from?

[Yoss]

The galling bit is that a significant chunk of the support wouldn't bat an eye if the club went into administration again and debts went unpaid. In such a situation (a club entering administration in little over 5 years with creditors getting something like 3p in the pound last time round, and no league or points penalties applied), then really, in a competitive league environment, Livingston shouldn't be able to hold on to SFL1 status at the expense of another club who haven't indulged in such financial mis-management.

If it happens, it really needs to be a watershed moment in what the SFL accepts as fit and proper behaviour from its member clubs. Coming into existance and casting aside creditors is one thing. Running up unmanagable debt in less than 10 years to get to the SPL was quite another.

To have the slate wiped clean only five short years ago, and then proceed to run up unmanageable debt yet again and then run for hills to once more get the administrators to get that debt written off would simply have to be seen as some sort of ethical line being crossed.

Lets hope that it doesn't come to that, and this time, Livingston pay what they owe. If I were a West Lothian ratepayer, I think I'd also be taking more than a passing interest in what my council is up to in the weeks ahead.

I'd like to nominate Duncan Freemason for 'Poster of the Year'. Spot on right through this thread.

As I read the thread I think of things I want to say, and then I find he's already said them and better than I would have done.

[jimbo]

I'm actually tempted to go along to this one myself.

There would be absolutely no objections from me if you did. In fact I'd welcome an incisive question or two from you to see how he handles it.

[ObserverFromAfar]

Yes, it would be a second time. although the Hunter to Keane deal (either that or the Meadowbank to Livvy deal) involved the jettisoning of existing creditors without payment.

Of all the things that were wrong with the Meadowbank leg of the journey that ended in Spring 1995, I don't think that leaving creditors in the lurch was one. I assume therefore it was the time from Summer 1995 onwards that needs to be referenced here.

[jimbo]

Duncan,

You are more generous in your support for the sensible Livi fans that I could ever hope to be and I salute you for that.

As for the Livi fans that have yet to wake up and smell the cappucino...I won't be at the vale next year if that madman is still, by some freak of coincidence, in control of your club...he ain't getting any more of my cash.

I can assure you that a lot of Livi fans have made the same decision.

[Guest]

I can assure you that a lot of Livi fans have made the same decision.

It's one of those rare occasions when i think we all have to separate Livingston FC from the supporters of Livingston FC. We all know that the a significant number of the support lived in a bubble from the club's inception through to administration in 2004. They believed (because everything the unquestioning eye saw around them confirmed it) that they were part of some brave new utopian world for small town clubs that their peers were simply jealous of.

Of course, time showed that the detractors and doubters were more or less spot on.

Then PF arrived with more of the same, and did little to break down unrealistic expectations. in fact, he re-inforced them with all sorts of jingoistic nonsense during his first year or so of tenure.

I believe he did run up debt, but managed to keep a hold of the reins of sanity (if not the ones of sound fiscal policy). Massone et al arrived as the third white knight spouting as much tripe as those that had gone before.

Now, some believed him. You have to guess that it will mainly be kids. They want to believe. Massone was just another incarnation of Santa Claus ready to bestow gold and silver upon their football team. They wanted it to be true.

Trouble is, Massone seems to have had rings run round him by PF. Flynn has really done nothing wrong is his disposal of the club. As the X Files said on many occasions, "the truth is out there". Massone seems to have been unable to see anything other than a stadium that would cost twelve to fifteen million to build was there for the taking. All he had to do was persuade a council to give him it in exchange for some magic beans and a cow.

That, (I believe) is where he is stuck today. He has to get his hands on that stadium from the council for a fraction of its value for everything to work, and he has to do it by June 30th. If he can get it from the council for a pittance, he will then seek to borrow against it (massively). So what could he do with the money he borrows against the deeds to the stadium? Well, lets just say there would be a few options open to him.

However, he has to get the council to let him have it with no capital changing hands by the 30th of June. He has to somehow sweeten the council to the deal. That will be worth watching.

It's going to make for some interesting viewing in the days and weeks ahead, and I reckon Thursday will be nothing more than the latest stalling tactics in keeping the natives quiet. Hell, there might even be an opportunity for well heeled fans to give him a few grand each and buy into the masterplan.....

Whatever the outcome, the one thing you won't get is clarity. Not a chance.

[KingfaetheSooth]

It's one of those rare occasions when i think we all have to separate Livingston FC from the supporters of Livingston FC. We all know that the a significant number of the support lived in a bubble from the club's inception through to administration in 2004. They believed (because everything the unquestioning eye saw around them confirmed it) that they were part of some brave new utopian world for small town clubs that their peers were simply jealous of.

Of course, time showed that the detractors and doubters were more or less spot on.

Then PF arrived with more of the same, and did little to break down unrealistic expectations. in fact, he re-inforced them with all sorts of jingoistic nonsense during his first year or so of tenure.

I believe he did run up debt, but managed to keep a hold of the reins of sanity (if not the ones of sound fiscal policy). Massone et al arrived as the third white knight spouting as much tripe as those that had gone before.

Now, some believed him. You have to guess that it will mainly be kids. They want to believe. Massone was just another incarnation of Santa Claus ready to bestow gold and silver upon their football team. They wanted it to be true.

Trouble is, Massone seems to have had rings run round him by PF. Flynn has really done nothing wrong is his disposal of the club. As the X Files said on many occasions, "the truth is out there". Massone seems to have been unable to see anything other than a stadium that would cost twelve to fifteen million to build was there for the taking. All he had to do was persuade a council to give him it in exchange for some magic beans and a cow.

That, (I believe) is where he is stuck today. He has to get his hands on that stadium from the council for a fraction of its value for everything to work, and he has to do it by June 30th. If he can get it from the council for a pittance, he will then seek to borrow against it (massively). So what could he do with the money he borrows against the deeds to the stadium? Well, lets just say there would be a few options open to him.

However, he has to get the council to let him have it with no capital changing hands by the 30th of June. He has to somehow sweeten the council to the deal. That will be worth watching.

It's going to make for some interesting viewing in the days and weeks ahead, and I reckon Thursday will be nothing more than the latest stalling tactics in keeping the natives quiet. Hell, there might even be an opportunity for well heeled fans to give him a few grand each and buy into the masterplan.....

Whatever the outcome, the one thing you won't get is clarity. Not a chance.

I am also loving Duncan Freemason's work on this thread. As I also did on *that* Gretna thread about this time last year.

Poster of the year without any shadow of a doubt in my humble opinion.

[loyal-blue]

Empire Total War on PC, anything around £20 for it.

[Chuckinho]

I'm trying to do a bit of cursory digging on Massone and he seems to be a bit of an enigma.

I find it odd that such a "prominent" Italian "businessman" should have no apparent profile...

Out of interest, does anyone know how old he is or where he purports to be from?

Can't find much, other than that he is a lawyer and agent from Rome and that according to some Italian sources he is known as an intermediary between Italian players and English Clubs.

His colleague Tomasso Angelini is Davie Hay's son-in-law.

[Guest]

Can't find much, other than that he is a lawyer and agent from Rome and that according to some Italian sources he is known as an intermediary between Italian players and English Clubs.

His colleague Tomasso Angelini is Davie Hay's son-in-law.

I think if Davie Hay could go back in time a year or so, he'd have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the takeover. Undoubtedly a go between and advisor, he's kind of been a fringe part of the "no due diligence" part of the story, and may well have had his judgement clouded by the Keane years.

The Italian guys......... I think the best we can currently say is that they are pathologically economic with the truth regardless of who they speak to, and on the evidence to date, way out of their depth in a footballing sense, a cultural and social awareness sense, and a business sense. Their behaviour wrt Hegarty sees them fit that Oscar Wilde quote rather well........they know the price of everything, and the value of nothing.

I've got a free evening on Thursday, so sod it, I'm go along.

P.S. interesting point being made on LL that rent will be cut by a third, but should come down further, and must be based on turnover. If this happens, then the council will have opened the floodgates to every struggling business in the district to demand the same treatment. How could they refuse them?

Edited May 19, 2009 by Guest

[Livi Willie]

The Italian guys......... I think the best we can currently say is that they are pathologically economic with the truth regardless of who they speak to, and on the evidence to date, way out of their depth in a footballing sense, a cultural and social awareness sense, and a business sense. Their behaviour wrt Hegarty sees them fit that Oscar Wilde quote rather well........they know the price of everything, and the value of nothing.

I've got a free evening on Thursday, so sod it, I'm go along.

Hey, if he's going along, then I'm deffo going too.

And howzabout LLD?

See you there too, bud?

[banjo player]

Need to be careful that you don't make a fruitless trip Duncan. Both Massone and Franchi have previous when it comes to excluding people...

Just had a wee wheech round the Livi Lions forum and it is simply astounding how gullible many of the posters seem to be. Are they really that simple? Liz Franchi has invited all supporters to a meeting so that means it's all going to be fine...

[Livi Willie]

Just had a wee wheech round the Livi Lions forum and it is simply astounding how gullible many of the posters seem to be. Are they really that simple? Liz Franchi has invited all supporters to a meeting so that means it's all going to be fine...

You will BELIEVE....

The Scientologists have got nothing on Massone when it comes to cults....

Yes CULTS with an L.