Livingston - all the threads merged

[lyle be back]

From reading the postings here and on Livi Lions, it would appear that Massone has undergone a damascene conversion from 'we're not in financial trouble its all made up by enemies of the club/ the papers' to 'buy 300 season tickets or we're f****d'.

I find it amazing that Livi fans are urging each other to buy season tickets - talk about throwing good money after bad. Your only hope is (yet another) administration, booting out Massones croneys and starting from scratch - save your money for that.

The way this club has been run is a disgrace to Scottish football, and the sooner it ends the better. Livi fans need to get together to build a plan to get them out of administration now. And the SFA should demote them to div 3 - otherwise I would advocate all clubs overspending, going into admin and restarting again ad infinitum.

End game is now in sight methinks. Its like watching a car crash in slow motion...

[Livi]

I certainly think that Massone jumped in without due care and attention although he had, at that time, a couple of wealthy backers who have since disappeared. Pearse disclosed everything in the bill of sale so to say he held back other stuff isn't true IMO.

I think the "Trust" showed their true colours last night by offering £2 to buy the club. Their public face has always been that the business plan is only a safety net if we go into admin. The offer shows how desperate they are to get their hands on the club, perhaps even desperate enough to threaten club employees who support Massone ?

What if Massone had accepted the deal ? It means they would also be buying the club's debts which runs into six figures. How would they go about clearing those debts and getting the club onto an even keel? Since formation in 2004 they have raised around £20,000 in total, hardly enough to pay the salaries for a month. To critisise Massone for not following due dilligence then jumping in with an offer before they have studied the club's financies shows they are no better than he is.

You just want to shit stir with anything Livi.

I don't like everyone on the Trust board, but I won't have a vandetta against them either.

Massone is killing our club, and should do the right thing, and put the club up for sale until this point I am not sure Livi fans will unite to save the club.

He doesn't have the money he said he had :-(

[MCL]

You just want to shit stir with anything Livi.

I don't like everyone on the Trust board, but I won't have a vandetta against them either.

Massone is killing our club, and should do the right thing, and put the club up for sale until this point I am not sure Livi fans will unite to save the club.

He doesn't have the money he said he had :-(

One person's opinion is another person's shit stirring

Got any answers to my questions ?

[Guest]

I certainly think that Massone jumped in without due care and attention although he had, at that time, a couple of wealthy backers who have since disappeared. Pearse disclosed everything in the bill of sale so to say he held back other stuff isn't true IMO.

I think the "Trust" showed their true colours last night by offering £2 to buy the club. Their public face has always been that the business plan is only a safety net if we go into admin. The offer shows how desperate they are to get their hands on the club, perhaps even desperate enough to threaten club employees who support Massone ?

What if Massone had accepted the deal ? It means they would also be buying the club's debts which runs into six figures. How would they go about clearing those debts and getting the club onto an even keel? Since formation in 2004 they have raised around £20,000 in total, hardly enough to pay the salaries for a month. To critisise Massone for not following due dilligence then jumping in with an offer before they have studied the club's financies shows they are no better than he is.

I agree, the bill of sale would have had a series of line items. However, I'm pretty certain that a bit more digging by Massone would have uncovered some less than savoury details. The hook in all of this has been the sale price, and the stadium. Anything else was a bonus. The import of lower league Italian players was an unmitigated disaster. The man simply hasn't thought through running costs, and I reckon he thought that buying a club for a quid opened the doors to buy a twelve million pound stadium for buttons.

I'd take issue with you regarding the Trust.........and I'm assuming it is a proper trust. If it is, then it's a bit like the goodl old American "run by the people for the people". Yes it can be an ego trip, but it won't be a financial one. There is but one true agenda with a trust, and most importantly, you break away from being a club that never honours it's debts. If Livvy had an Experian credit rating, how bad do you think it would be?

Your Trust and the supporters need to get beyond what you think a Trust is to the point where you understand what it is really about. I've heard so much talk amongst Livvy supporters about wanting ownership. A Trust is the way to do it.

If i heard correctly, Massone was offering shares to the Trust in exchange for money. Think about that for a moment. He bought it for a quid. He has markedly increased the clubs debt. Now he wants (lets be honest here), thousands of pounds in exchange for a minority part of what he paid a quid for. Time and time again he shows his true colours, but time and time again he simply gets away with it.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Guest

[Yoss]

I think the "Trust" showed their true colours last night by offering £2 to buy the club. Their public face has always been that the business plan is only a safety net if we go into admin. The offer shows how desperate they are to get their hands on the club, perhaps even desperate enough to threaten club employees who support Massone ?

What if Massone had accepted the deal ? It means they would also be buying the club's debts which runs into six figures. How would they go about clearing those debts and getting the club onto an even keel? Since formation in 2004 they have raised around £20,000 in total, hardly enough to pay the salaries for a month. To critisise Massone for not following due dilligence then jumping in with an offer before they have studied the club's financies shows they are no better than he is.

That's a very unkind spin to put on it - Massone is not being criticised for lack of due dilligence as such, but for the lack of it and then for blaming other people for issues that have arisen. The Trust, whether or not they know the full extent of the problems, are aware that they're very much there and think the wrong person or people are in place currently to deal ith it. They'd prefer to take it over and confront such problems as exist before they get any worse. And regardless of any personalities and egos involved, there's no reason to think their desire to do so comes from anything other than a genuine wish to help the club they love.

Trusts are composed of fans anyway, no one has any obligation to support them or to think they're the right people to get involved, and I accept that nor does everyone have the time or capabilities to get involved themselves, but sniping from the sidelines while the club goes down the chute isn't going to do anyone any good.

[banjo player]

You just want to shit stir with anything Livi.

I don't like everyone on the Trust board, but I won't have a vandetta against them either.

Massone is killing our club, and should do the right thing, and put the club up for sale until this point I am not sure Livi fans will unite to save the club.

He doesn't have the money he said he had :-(

I think you've missed the point of large portions of this thread. Massone won't put Livi up for sale since no one in their right mind would buy it. His only option will be administration once he finally realises that his ideas are impossible to achieve and the debt is unsustainable. Whether this is now, 30 May, 30 June or some later date is all conjecture since he and his colleagues are the only ones who know precisely how the balance sheet looks at the moment.

The fact that you are saying "he doesn't have the money he said he had :-(" shows that you are still one of the folk who think that some unknown white knight is going to ride in to save you and after that it will all be fine (again). It won't happen that way this time since the fundamentals (in terms of basic cash flow) are absolutely screwed. You are a club with the core support of East Fife or Stenhousemuir who think that they are Kilmarnock or St Mirren.

Livi fans need to sit back, strap themselves in, keep the heid and ride out the storm that is on its way then come back with a different attitude and claim your place as real football fans. Sadly, that will start at a lower level than you are at just now, but WLC will support local football, the community should support local football and if it's handled well by whoever ends up in charge you will have the chance to climb back up.

[Guest]

I think you've missed the point of large portions of this thread. Massone won't put Livi up for sale since no one in their right mind would buy it. His only option will be administration once he finally realises that his ideas are impossible to achieve and the debt is unsustainable. Whether this is now, 30 May, 30 June or some later date is all conjecture since he and his colleagues are the only ones who know precisely how the balance sheet looks at the moment.

The fact that you are saying "he doesn't have the money he said he had :-(" shows that you are still one of the folk who think that some unknown white knight is going to ride in to save you and after that it will all be fine (again). It won't happen that way this time since the fundamentals (in terms of basic cash flow) are absolutely screwed. You are a club with the core support of East Fife or Stenhousemuir who think that they are Kilmarnock or St Mirren.

Livi fans need to sit back, strap themselves in, keep the heid and ride out the storm that is on its way then come back with a different attitude and claim your place as real football fans. Sadly, that will start at a lower level than you are at just now, but WLC will support local football, the community should support local football and if it's handled well by whoever ends up in charge you will have the chance to climb back up.

I have an uneasy sense that Livingston's debt might be a hell of a lot higher than people think it is. Doubtless they will have some sort of overdraft facilities that will be maxxed to the limit. That there is no transparency has got to be hugely worrying. That Massone has lied to every single supporter, has treated staff in an unacceptable manner, and his taken the club down to a hand to mouth existance says it all.

if Livingston do indeed head for the administration hills, then the footballing penalties could (and should) be eye wateringly severe.

[EdinburghLivi]

I must say I really don't see why the club should be punished because of arseholes running up debt in any administration case. It should be the person responsible that is punished, not the supporters, staff, businesses and sponsers associated with the club that have done nothing wrong.

I don't think our debt should be written off by any means but if you impose a penalty on the new owners, there's more chance of relegation and less chance of the debt being repaid quickly. If you actually sent us to the third division, there would be no chance of it ever being repaid because the level of income would be tiny.

As a side note, if our debt was to be written off, I'd gladly accept the third division.

Edited May 22, 2009 by EdinburghLivi

[banjo player]

I must say I really don't see why the club should be punished because of arseholes running up debt in any administration case. It should be the person responsible that is punished, not the supporters, staff, businesses and sponsers associated with the club that have done nothing wrong.

I don't think our debt should be written off by any means but if you impose a penalty on the new owners, there's more chance of relegation and less chance of the debt being repaid quickly. If you actually sent us to the third division, there would be no chance of it ever being repaid because the level of income would be tiny.

I have huge sympathy for the fans of any team in this situation since you are right, it isn't the fans fault. In fact in this case the fans that have been trying to cry foul (the trust) are being vilified by other fans as egotists and empire builders when in my view they are the only ones with any grasp of what is going on here in terms of preparing for the worst and hoping for the best. The very fact that those trust members are not hugely rich businessmen seems to be a reason for suspicion when the reverse should be the case, after all if you are running a medium sized decorating business why the hell would you want to run a football club unless you really do care.

Paradoxically, Livi are in better shape than some to survive the trauma of another bankruptcy, since the council own the ground and there aren't too many other football teams in the market for a stadium in Livingston. The big issue for supporters is now to plan for administration and do all that they can to make sure that the administrator doesn't wind up the company so they can start again at a lower base, still in the SFL.

[Guest Wall E]

The offer shows how desperate they are to get their hands on the club, perhaps even desperate enough to threaten club employees who support Massone?

Not managed to squeeze any names yet from your 'source'?

[Guest]

I have an uneasy sense that Livingston's debt might be a hell of a lot higher than people think it is. Doubtless they will have some sort of overdraft facilities that will be maxxed to the limit. That there is no transparency has got to be hugely worrying. That Massone has lied to every single supporter, has treated staff in an unacceptable manner, and his taken the club down to a hand to mouth existance says it all.

if Livingston do indeed head for the administration hills, then the footballing penalties could (and should) be eye wateringly severe.

That's the Gretna argument. You are in SFL1 because you are spending money you don't have. Allowing you stay in the SFL1 would mean not allowing someone else in because they managed themselves correctly. In a footballing sense, it rewards the bad boys.

When things are going well, you adopt the "we" stance. When it goes badly, you adopt the "they" stance. It doesn't work.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Guest

[Livi]

One person's opinion is another person's shit stirring

Got any answers to my questions ?

Whatever, you just seem hell bent in stirring shite with all things Livi. Your vandetta against certain Livi fans is embarrassing at times.

What answers you looking for??

You just want to stir shit you don't really want answers.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Livi

[Livi]

I think you've missed the point of large portions of this thread. Massone won't put Livi up for sale since no one in their right mind would buy it. His only option will be administration once he finally realises that his ideas are impossible to achieve and the debt is unsustainable. Whether this is now, 30 May, 30 June or some later date is all conjecture since he and his colleagues are the only ones who know precisely how the balance sheet looks at the moment.

The fact that you are saying "he doesn't have the money he said he had :-(" shows that you are still one of the folk who think that some unknown white knight is going to ride in to save you and after that it will all be fine (again). It won't happen that way this time since the fundamentals (in terms of basic cash flow) are absolutely screwed. You are a club with the core support of East Fife or Stenhousemuir who think that they are Kilmarnock or St Mirren.

Livi fans need to sit back, strap themselves in, keep the heid and ride out the storm that is on its way then come back with a different attitude and claim your place as real football fans. Sadly, that will start at a lower level than you are at just now, but WLC will support local football, the community should support local football and if it's handled well by whoever ends up in charge you will have the chance to climb back up.

Eh, I have got the point alright. I'd rather Massone left & the Livi fans picked up the pieces (whatever that may be). I certainly don't think there is a white knight required at Livi.

Massone is damaging the name of Livingston FC locally with fans, local businesses, etc. He wants them to help them after he has treated them like shite all season.

Time to get back to the basic's for Livi FC

[MCL]

Not managed to squeeze any names yet from your 'source'?

Did you not read your own post on Livilions ??? It was an anonymous note left on the windscreen of his car which the police are now investigating.

My money is on the guy with the big mouth. The one with the big scar as a result of shooting his mouth of in a pub until the other guy couldn't take any more and glassed him

The same guy that almost started a fight at the meeting last night. The same guy that almost started at fight at Ross County recently.

The same guy that got arrested at a Livi game at Easter Road for shooting his mouth off and threatening a young Hibee, probably to do with him being a Jambo at heart. Can you see a pattern here ?

I remember reading a post from him on the Jambo forums saying he wouldn't be back to Tynecastle until the pieman had left. To paraphrase a famous song - "The pieman has gone, why don't you go home?" :lol:

[MCL]

Whatever, you just seem hell bent in stirring shite with all things Livi. Your vandetta against certain Livi fans is embarrassing at times.

What answers you looking for??

You just want to stir shit you don't really want answers.

Yeah, whatever.

The answer to what would the "Trust" do if Massone accepted their offer of £2 for the club but were saddled with the same debt. How would they pay for the stuff that Massone is struggling with ?

[Guest Wall E]

Can you see a pattern here ?

Ho ho! The only pattern I'm seeing here is that you are still the same lying, website account hacking, slap happy, gay porn posting p***k that is as hell bent now on further splitting the tiny support we have as you've ever been.

Face it man. You're a pariah! No-one likes you, No-one. And that really rankles with you, but of course, you don't care. 

Edited May 22, 2009 by Wall E

[MCL]

Ho ho! The only pattern I'm seeing here is that you are still the same lying, website account hacking, slap happy, gay porn posting p***k that is as hell bent now on further splitting the tiny support we have as you've ever been.

Face it man. You're a pariah! No-one likes you, No-one. And that really rankles with you, but of course, you don't care. 

:lol:

[Livi]

Yeah, whatever.

The answer to what would the "Trust" do if Massone accepted their offer of £2 for the club but were saddled with the same debt. How would they pay for the stuff that Massone is struggling with ?

Yeah, whatever - Admission you do have a vandetta against some of the Livi support ?

Even your not that daft. You get people with business acumen that assist you. You do the basic things like talk to creditors and get them to 'buy in' to your overall plan. Mr Massone could have done the same thing, but choose to ignore creditors (you included) until they had the courts on there sides. It also cost him more doing it that way i.e. he didn't have a plan!

It's not hard & there is nothing to say people will accept your plan, but its got to be better than just ignoring them IMO

Edited May 22, 2009 by Livi

[Guest Wall E]

Indeed. 

[MCL]

Indeed. 

A bit of the Calum Eliots :lol: