Livingston - all the threads merged

[EdinburghLivi]

I just hope it's over quickly again. I know you don't personally support the trust MCL but if Nixon can take over soon after we go into admin, I'll be happy.

I really don't want us simply to be reinstated in this division though, it would be painful having to suffer consecutive relegations when we actually begin to live within our means.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

I just hope it's over quickly again. I know you don't personally support the trust MCL but if Nixon can take over soon after we go into admin, I'll be happy.

I really don't want us simply to be reinstated in this division though, it would be painful having to suffer consecutive relegations when we actually begin to live within our means.

I suspect Massone will drag things out as long as possible.

However, strange as it may sound, being punted down to the 3rd (with a restructured/wiped debt) might actually be the best thing that could happen to you.

All the previously mentioned hangers-on/gloryhunters etc etc will drift away, and you'll be left with guys that actually WANT to be involved and to make a right go of running a community club. It'll be painful, and will take time, but i think it's probably the best solution you can hope for.

[Guest]

I just hope it's over quickly again. I know you don't personally support the trust MCL but if Nixon can take over soon after we go into admin, I'll be happy.

I really don't want us simply to be reinstated in this division though, it would be painful having to suffer consecutive relegations when we actually begin to live within our means.

Nothing against the good and honest folks who follow the team, but if admin comes about, they simply cannot be allowed to continue in the first division. Airdrie should be re-instated immediately.

[AND180Y]

I just hope it's over quickly again. I know you don't personally support the trust MCL but if Nixon can take over soon after we go into admin, I'll be happy.

I really don't want us simply to be reinstated in this division though, it would be painful having to suffer consecutive relegations when we actually begin to live within our means.

Why would he be taking over, I thought it was the trusts vision or are they just the horse?

[Yoss]

I think there are a few clubs, now and at various points in time, who would happily accept relegation to the third as a reasonable price for having the slate wiped. If administration has to be then it has to be, and particularly if the Trust are to take over I wouldn't want to see them too hamstrung by the sins of their previous owners. But I'm a little bit concerned by the blithe ease with which some are talking about defaulting on debts (again) as being a desirable solution.

[MCL]

Why would he be taking over, I thought it was the trusts vision or are they just the horse?

Uh-oh, someone has rumbled Nixon's cunning plan B)

[Chuckinho]

So we all definietly agree that Massone is not the man to continue "leading" this club.

I would think that the other clubs and fans in the first Division would be pretty unamused if Livi did "wipe the slate clean" and didn't get relegated.

What sort of reprting and transperancy is there? Any? How can clubs be allowed to get to this stage. I don't suggest that the SFL should be in the books the whole time, but they do hold the power, do they not?

Ergo - if you want to play in our league, then you need to report on things (If this isn't alreayd happening)

If it is already happening then surely the SFL has to share part of the blame for allowing it to continue.

If one outstanding debt is to the council, how will they be able to continue at Almondvale or anywhere in West Lothian? Moving would be a disaster surely.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Chuckinho

[AND180Y]

Uh-oh, someone has rumbled Nixon's cunning plan B)

You mean he is more like Pearse Flynn than Fergus McCann?

What happened to Pearse Flynn the "Livi Fan" who would keep going to their games after he sold up? Not that much of a fan that has allowed things to go down the road they have?

Edited May 29, 2009 by AND180Y

[ObserverFromAfar]

Uh-oh, someone has rumbled Nixon's cunning plan B)

I am trying to logically think this through to conclusion. I appreciate that there are various scenarios and paths that the next episodes could follow - including Massone and the current owners/board turning things around very quickly and saving the day. It may happen, but the probability is, I think, low.

So focussing on the Trust and what I have read on LiviLions and elsewhere, it appears the Livingston Trust wish to build a community club for the benefit of the local community and business, but the only route they have into taking over the Club is the Football Club going into Administration. At this point, the Trust could put in a bid to obtain the club from the Administrators. The bid would, I suspect, only be a %-age of the total outstanding debts due to the creditors - who include local businesses.

Now obviously, there are a number of unknowns - the total size of the outstanding debts, the money the Trust have to buy the club from the Administrator, any extra costs incurred during any Administration, any assests that may be dispossed of by the Administrators and money raised to cover outstanding debts.

But is this not one of the challenges that Trust are facing - there may be a high probability of them not being able to pay the local businesses in full if they assume contol, and these are the same businesses that they are looking for support from to build the community club? If my observations correct, can these two opposing positions be reconciled?

[Glasgow Loon]

I see the trust have only raised £20k over 4/5 years which i think doesnt bode well for raising more cash to takeover livi if they get the chance.

The Loons supportes club have raised £15k for the last 5 years and on top of this years £15k they also raised £12k from a casino night.

It looks to me as if the trust need to start fundraising to get anywhere near the money they will require.

[Guest]

I see the trust have only raised £20k over 4/5 years which i think doesnt bode well for raising more cash to takeover livi if they get the chance.

The Loons supportes club have raised £15k for the last 5 years and on top of this years £15k they also raised £12k from a casino night.

It looks to me as if the trust need to start fundraising to get anywhere near the money they will require.

That's because the Livvy support have always functioned as a dependency culture. They have firmly set up camp in the place that says "someone will invest in us because we are Livingston". Debt has never been something that has been too much of a hindrance in the past, and things have always tended to sort themselves out with the club (up to now) walking away unscathed.

Once reality hits home, I'm quite sure that it'll change, and the Livvy Trust will raise funds at a rate that reflects a club of their given scope and range. The limited funds to date are an output of a support that has never really understood or needed a Trust.

That will change pretty soon.

[Chuckinho]

That will change pretty soon.

I had better change as at the moment, Massone is making the SFL look absolutely obscenely impotent. Someone is thinking they are getting away with treating us all like fools.

[Guest]

I had better change as at the moment, Massone is making the SFL look absolutely obscenely impotent. Someone is thinking they are getting away with treating us all like fools.

Unfortunately, the SFL actually is obscenely impotent. That Massone has managed to complete a season without any form of sanction whatsoever tells us all we need to know about the SFL and its ability to make its members act in an ethical manner. Massone has simply managed to bring it into stark focus by providing assurances that he then chose to ignore. The club should have been nailed to the wall today........the first day that wages were overdue.

Massone can pay wages late for month after month after month, but the minute SFL seek to talk to him, the very most he has to do is pay them on time just the once, and the SFL resolve quickly evaporates. That he hasn't even bothered with the "one payday on time" format shows the disdain he has for all things SFL, and starkly demonstrates the inability of the SFL to see "integrity" as a basic pre-requisite to continued league membership.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Guest

[Chuckinho]

Surely the SFL has to work out what benefit a Livi team would be to them and to the game in general.

I can't see how even if Massone bullSh*ts his way into the next season that he can pay the players and without pay, I'm sure he wont have a team.

As a PR exercise, this shows can't be good for the SFL, as it shows that obvious impotence.

I therefore have no pity for the league as they have caused this by their inaction. It is the other clubs who I feel sorry for.

Whilst I'm not advocating anyone feeling sorry for Airdrie, there is a club who don't know which league they will be playing in next season (assuming losing the playoff makes them eligible) and that can't be helping their financial planning.

I noted that Livi have a new strip with a sponsor. Is the sponsor locked in for a while or would they jump ship? I assume that they've already contributed money for the kit and so thehy wont get a penny back when their sponsorship exposure evaporates.

[Yoss]

If the sponsors have any sense they'll have set up an arrangement to pay in tranches through the season, which I think is generally what happens anyway. If they've overpaid or are owed anything in the event of the club going under they'd just have to join the queue of (ordinary) creditors.

[LLD]

The sponsors are a year into a two-year deal. They must be gutted - who'd want to be associated with Massone and his parcel of rogues?

[southview]

So now some players have gone two months without wages...? I am astonished this situation is being allowed to drag on. Are we the only people in the world who know or are talking about the Livi shambles??

The SFL should have been all over them like a rash this month for not paying players on time. They now just look as if they don't know what to do. Maybe Massone will tell them there are one or two short-term cashflow problems and that everything will be okay before handing out a bucket and asking David Longmuir for a donation.

I am also surprised that some of the players haven't spoken out about this and also the lack of comment from PFA Scotland. They must surely have decided enough is enough.

Livi should be relegated to division three next week, none of this waiting to see what happens with the council first. They can't wait until the start of July to impose something like this as it would put Airdrie at a huge disadvantage and that is entirely unfair, especially given that they have played by the rules.

[jimbo]

So now some players have gone two months without wages...? I am astonished this situation is being allowed to drag on. Are we the only people in the world who know or are talking about the Livi shambles??

The SFL should have been all over them like a rash this month for not paying players on time. They now just look as if they don't know what to do. Maybe Massone will tell them there are one or two short-term cashflow problems and that everything will be okay before handing out a bucket and asking David Longmuir for a donation.

I am also surprised that some of the players haven't spoken out about this and also the lack of comment from PFA Scotland. They must surely have decided enough is enough.

Livi should be relegated to division three next week, none of this waiting to see what happens with the council first. They can't wait until the start of July to impose something like this as it would put Airdrie at a huge disadvantage and that is entirely unfair, especially given that they have played by the rules.

Dave McKay did and was transferred to St Johnstone for £0. There is also some kind of mystery surrounding Robertson and Heggarty's dismissal so maybe they said something too. Who knows?! The money we got from St Johnstone was for Davidson. You see McKay would have been entitled to a cut of the transfer fee if there had been one. He spoke about it in the Courier (local paper) last week.That's the kind of folk they are.

For what it's worth I agree with all who say it's a disgrace that the SFL have allowed this to go on. As LLD says we need to start again at the bottom and get it right this time.

[HibeeJibee]

As I said earlier: talk of what "the SFL" should do is pointless. It is only 30x club reps + Longmuir.

[southview]

Dave McKay did and was transferred to St Johnstone for £0. There is also some kind of mystery surrounding Robertson and Heggarty's dismissal so maybe they said something too. Who knows?! The money we got from St Johnstone was for Davidson. You see McKay would have been entitled to a cut of the transfer fee if there had been one. He spoke about it in the Courier (local paper) last week.That's the kind of folk they are.

For what it's worth I agree with all who say it's a disgrace that the SFL have allowed this to go on. As LLD says we need to start again at the bottom and get it right this time.

Yeah, I read MacKay's piece in the Courier and mentioned him speaking out in an earlier post. I am surprised that some of the other players haven't spoken out, perhaps with PFA Scotland backing.

Being relegated to division three I think would be best possible scenario for Livi. I think you would still carry a fair support and therefore be able to spend that wee bit more on quality players than others which could get you out at first attempt. Then you'd be just one promotion from being where you were.

You would also (hopefully) be rid of Manic Massone and run properly.