Livingston - all the threads merged

[veteran]

So, if a stitch up now seems to be near enough a certainty, who wins and who loses?

The Losers: Anyone and everyone who has payments outstanding from LFC. This includes the public purse, but probably not the councillors themselves who will ensure that they feature on the winners list.

The Winners: The 1% or so of the local population who follow the privately owned LFC. Their council will ensure that any and all debts owed to the public purse will simply disappear. 99% of the population will lose a little so that the 1% can gain a lot.

Councillors who enjoy a bit of nose troughing at Almondvale every second Saturday. I don't know who they are, but they are the ones who will ensure that public money is syphoned the club's way in return for being given a bit of special treatment every second Saturday.

The Livi Trust: They get to play Billy Big Shots on the back of the creditors being bumped.

McDougall: He gets the club for a pittance on the back of the creditors being bumped. Treating those councillors right every second Saturday will ensure a bit of preferential treatment in return. This will take the form of very cheap stadium rental rates and doubtless other bits and pieces no-one would rather speak about.

Is it corruption? I don't know. Twenty years ago, it would have been, but in these days when standards of integrity in local government are in freefall, then I'd rather leave that determination to others. If the above is what is actually happening, then corruption or not, it still stinks to high heaven. No wonder the council leader was nervous on tv. I wonder if he sleeps ok at night.

A number of councils have found ways over the years to 'subsidise' local teams in one way or another.

I don't think you could call it 'corruption' but I would much rather it was done more 'up front' so people know just how much councils are shelling out one way or another.

[phantoms-livi-lass]

Virgins in Livingston, only on the telly

How would you know?

[Guest]

A number of councils have found ways over the years to 'subsidise' local teams in one way or another.

I don't think you could call it 'corruption' but I would much rather it was done more 'up front' so people know just how much councils are shelling out one way or another.

Yep, I'd like that too. This is being sold (or about to be sold) to the public as something other than what it actually is. In today's climate, the spending of public funds and then dressing it in such a manner so that it looks something other than what it is has got to be questionable.

That previously the council have paid corporate hospitality for a stadium which they already own, and the use of which was restricted to a small band of councillors was at best, questionable.

That those self same council people are driven by self interest rather than what is best for the people of West Lothian, is something I'd far rather not have nagging away at the back of my mind..........but the lack of transparency over what is going on makes those nagging doubts all the more real.

Look, it's not about me or the money I lost. That it is about to happen yet again is the real cause for concern, and that the very catalyst promoting the bumping of the creditors are people holding public office.

it was bad enough in 2004, but this time, it is morally worse.

Football and finance bring out the very worst in people. I know the good people of Livingston wish none of this were happening, but equally, they know that inside, they are happy for their council to manipulate a collapse of the club and bring about yet another derisory offer to creditors.

You kind of expect that from the usual suspects, but when it comes out of left field from public servants, and is covertly backed by those who wish to be seen as whiter than white when the dust settles, then I remain utterly convinced that there is something profoundly rotten in the state of Denmark, and it is this which angers me more than anything else.

However, I also understand that my ire amounts to nothing, and the council are pretty much reliant on a populace which is apathetic to the presence of a football club will also be apathetic and unquestioning of the role the council is playing in the current debacle.

Despite all the dew eyed apologies of 2004, and the assurances that all the lessons had been learned, and the "regret" over screwing a lot of people.................here we are again. At least in 2004, you knew who was screwing you. I'd like to see a small creditor put a face to the person putting the knife in this time. Oh well, I guess lessons are learned, and it'll never happen again......

[EdinburghLivi]

We're just about certainly gone.

Angelo fucks over Livingston for the last time.

[KingfaetheSooth]

We're just about certainly gone.

Angelo fucks over Livingston for the last time.

Totally shocking and disrepectful that the Scotsma journo should suggest that the one minute silence to acknowledge the passing of a former Queens Chairman might have been to mourn the passing of Livingston FC.

Few outside of Livi - and not even many in West Lothian - will give a flying f**k if they are liquidated and disappear off the football map.

[Skyline Drifter]

Totally shocking and disrepectful that the Scotsma journo should suggest that the one minute silence to acknowledge the passing of a former Queens Chairman might have been to mourn the passing of Livingston FC.

Oh calm down!

Personally I thought it was an accurate and rather apt observation.

It's a well written and pretty stark piece. It certainly doesn't look like the Livi situation will drag on as others have. I'd guess they'll either be taken over this coming week or liquidated at the end of it.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Skyline Drifter

[Yoss]

Yeah, that's one of the better articles.

There have been a few guns jumped on the last page or two of this thread, let's remember the Council only hold about 25% of the stated level of debt and aren't able by themselves to agree a stitch-up.

[Guest]

Yeah, that's one of the better articles.

There have been a few guns jumped on the last page or two of this thread, let's remember the Council only hold about 25% of the stated level of debt and aren't able by themselves to agree a stitch-up.

You are right Yoss. That they pushed the admin button as a calculated risk in order trigger a stitch up is enough to set alarm bells ringing. That they have been working behind closed doors to engineer a particular outcome while issuing bland public statements that certainly do not make clear what it is they are hoping to do (and it actually isn't about recovering monies owed), then that too gives cause for concern.

The minute public office tries to cover or disguise its actions, you've got trouble on your hands.

[Nizzy]

Totally shocking and disrepectful that the Scotsma journo should suggest that the one minute silence to acknowledge the passing of a former Queens Chairman might have been to mourn the passing of Livingston FC.

Few outside of Livi - and not even many in West Lothian - will give a flying f**k if they are liquidated and disappear off the football map.

Could this be the moment you actually transformed into the cartoon you've always verged on?

[AND180Y]

you mean there is something about Livi you don't know!!

I presume that if Livi go down you will become a non poster on here. I've had a wee look at your almost 400 posts and all but a handful are about Livi. I wonder what your agenda is. Ever post on Livilions?

How is Kelty Hearts getting on?

Oh I am sure there are quite a lot of things I don't know, I'm sure there are quite a few things the fans don't know and in the current circumstances I sure there are quite a lot of things that those involved don't want anyone to know.

The Livi term for I don't understand what you are saying or like your opinion - "you have an agenda"

Post on Livilions? Er no I'll stay in the relative safety of P&B rather than walk the gauntlet of abuse on Livilions which welcomes fans of other teams with an opinion outside that of the norm.

Kelty Hearts are doing just fine, better than your team anyways.

[AND180Y]

Yeah, that's one of the better articles.

There have been a few guns jumped on the last page or two of this thread, let's remember the Council only hold about 25% of the stated level of debt and aren't able by themselves to agree a stitch-up.

Yes but lets not forget that if they write off their debt, as it appears they have already done and if Massone is unable to prove his debt/is coerced into not claiming or reducing his claim then the debts fall dramatically.

The council, who have probably already spoken to HMRC are offering to cut the rental with no doubt a rent free period involved and as part of the "community status" will be paying for the use of facilities. This would make the new business plan look good.

Of course all of this makes the debt much much lower and the probability of a CVA funded by a new purchaser more palatable to HMRC who would get a bigger % of their debt than otherwise.

Remember also that a % of small creditors won't bother to file a claim as it is too much hassle and they need to get on with trying to make up what they have lost, content only to claim back the VAT.

Edited July 26, 2009 by AND180Y

[jimbo]

The Livi term for I don't understand what you are saying or like your opinion - "you have an agenda"

Hmm, perhaps, but you really do intrigue me. The other mega posters on this thread Duncan Freemason and Kingfaethesooth are quite upfront about theirs but why, I ask myself, would a Kelty Hearts supporter post almost exclusively about Livi and yet not a word about his preferred team.

I am sure you will see that my use of the word "agenda" in your case is understandable.

[veteran]

Yes but lets not forget that if they write off their debt, as it appears they have already done and if Massone is unable to prove his debt/is coerced into not claiming or reducing his claim then the debts fall dramatically.

The council, who have probably already spoken to HMRC are offering to cut the rental with no doubt a rent free period involved and as part of the "community status" will be paying for the use of facilities. This would make the new business plan look good.

Of course all of this makes the debt much much lower and the probability of a CVA funded by a new purchaser more palatable to HMRC who would get a bigger % of their debt than otherwise.

Remember also that a % of small creditors won't bother to file a claim as it is too much hassle and they need to get on with trying to make up what they have lost, content only to claim back the VAT.

I think a deal will be done with someone in the next couple of weeks.

I would find it fairly incredible that West Lothian Council would take on the 'guilt' of being the debtor who pulled the plug on Livi unless a lot of discussion and agreement has not already taken place with new potential owners.

[AND180Y]

Hmm, perhaps, but you really do intrigue me. The other mega posters on this thread Duncan Freemason and Kingfaethesooth are quite upfront about theirs but why, I ask myself, would a Kelty Hearts supporter post almost exclusively about Livi and yet not a word about his preferred team.

I am sure you will see that my use of the word "agenda" in your case is understandable.

Intriguing, I am a poster on an internet forum and you think I have an agenda because I have an opinion.

Now if I robbed a bank, got rich asset stripping or flew in from the Land of Pizza promising to invest in your team and take it to the higher reaches of the SPL, who I was or what I was wouldn't matter and I'd be welcomed to the "Livi Family" with open arms and minds.

Laughable but shockingly true.

[AND180Y]

I think a deal will be done with someone in the next couple of weeks.

I would find it fairly incredible that West Lothian Council would take on the 'guilt' of being the debtor who pulled the plug on Livi unless a lot of discussion and agreement has not already taken place with new potential owners.

I think the deal is done, they just need to wait till the right point in the timeline to announce it. (and obviously hope that no-one outbids their preferred purchaser)

[Numbers]

According to the scotsman, they are finished. So lets all wait and see.

[Aberdeen Cowden]

Hmm, perhaps, but you really do intrigue me. The other mega posters on this thread Duncan Freemason and Kingfaethesooth are quite upfront about theirs but why, I ask myself, would a Kelty Hearts supporter post almost exclusively about Livi and yet not a word about his preferred team.

I am sure you will see that my use of the word "agenda" in your case is understandable.

Maybe he wants to see Cowden promoted (just joking) It would be a bit difficult to bring a junior team into this debate. Maybe he wants to see fair play there are too many cowboys around just now and the lot of them should be exposed.

The guy (assuming he is a guy) has every right to comment here - he doesn't need an agenda.

Or should this be another closed shop?

[AND180Y]

According to the scotsman, they are finished. So lets all wait and see.

The Scotsman also says they will go into admin on the 18th if a deal to sell is not concluded.

If they can do something with Massone then the problems aren't that big.

[Savage Henry]

The Scotsman also says they will go into admin on the 18th if a deal to sell is not concluded.

If they can do something with Massone then the problems aren't that big.

The problems are virtually insurmountable. This is all merely a stave of execution.

[AND180Y]

The problems are virtually insurmountable. This is all merely a stave of execution.

You'd be surprised at what goes on behind closed doors to solve insurmountable problems.