Livingston - all the threads merged

[EdinburghLivi]

Sorry, EdinburghLivi, but your CIS Cup win and European jaunt were not honestly won because they were bought with other peoples' money that was never repaid. That's not at all a positive contribution to Scottish football, quite the opposite; there were some people coming out with the same shite about Gretna twelve months ago, about how they'd given more to the SCottish game in five years than other clubs (who refused to spend beyond their means) had in their lifetimes. Total bollocks.

Again, if Livi fans can't see that, any more than Gretna fans could, then I'm struggling to have much sympathy.

Yes, that's unfortunately a fair point. On reflection, that's probably right.

Regardless, I maintain that through devloping our youngsters in recent years, we have benefitted Scottish Football in the long run.

[Hopefull_Ton]

Which does not mean none were supportive to your cause, you are therefore saying you have no sympathy for Livi fans because some fans were nasty when you needed help, surely there is no need to tar us all with the one brush? I for sure don't think all queens fans are replicas of KFTS or that all Kelty fans are exactly like AND180Y.

Unless you have changed user names, you were not a member of this board at that time. In which case you can hardly question what was posted at that time!

I am saying that I have NO SYMPATHY with Livingston what so ever!

Sorry if that does not sit well with you! I don't wish to be rude, but, I thought I made myself quite clear in my first post.

Your "Club" have been an embarrassment to Scottish football almost from its inception, in the same way as Gretna. The number of financial irregularities associated with Livingston would be enough to make Zanussi the obvious choice as shirt sponsors!

And, to clarify matters, I don't expect EVERY Morton fan to agree with me. What I have posted is a PERSONAL view. However, all those who DO remember the threads of the time may find it hard to disagree with my thoughts.

[Peil]

Why wouldn't they, exactly?

The time that the incident referred to, sections of your support were sinking the boot into Morton fans, calling for the club to disappear.

Years of sneering at clubs with financial problems, and now your looking for sympathy, sorry but I won't shed a tear.

Haven't liked LIvingston for a while, won't be changing my mind in mock sympathy as they now lurch towards the grave

Edited July 28, 2009 by Peil

[Kenny_m]

I wish I could access the posts by Livingston fans from when Morton were going through their troubles. Many of them would be unable to sit down tonight because of the bites on their arses!

Comments like (and I paraphrase)"there is no place in Scottish football for teams like Morton"; "Teams like Livingston, with their purpose-built stadia, are the way forward for Scottish football"; "history has no place in todays football" all spring to mind.

At that time we received NO support from Livingston fans, they were pompous in their views of our plight and looking at THEIR history, all I can see is a list of fly-by-night owners who, continually sponge off the few fans they can claim and then move on and pass the baton to the next shyster.

Livingston, the club or the fans get no sympathy from me. I will reserve that for the fans of teams like Medowbank Thistle and Clydebank. The real tragedy of this whole situation is that another team which cheated the system, i.e. Airdrie United, could once again be the benefactors.

Airdrieonians paid the ultimate price for their mismanagement and blame the Chairman of the clubs who voted against Airdrie getting back in and forced them into the Clydebank scenario. Yes, voting Gretna in was a clever decision.

Do remember that Livi, Gretna and Dundee have all written off millions more than the debt that finished Airdrieonians.

[KingfaetheSooth]

Don't presume to know what my attitude or feelings were during the relocation. You had your opinion, I had my opinion on the move. I saw/see Livingston as a continuation of Meadowbank Thistle, and you seem to disagree.

To suggest that I was 'happy' about the Meadowbank Thistle name disappearing is a gross misrepresentation of the truth. Neither did I belittle anyone.

I wasn't even involved in writing the club programme for most of the final season at Meadowbank. Dig out your programmes - I quit early in the season.

Many supporters would see you as a scab for breaking ranks and going along with the move. Livingston FC was a new club - Meadowbank died the day it moved. The vast majority of Meadowbank fans were against the move and refused to be taken in by Mr Blobby. You sold your fitba soul to a new club in a new town.

You were entitled to your view and to start following the new club but don't expect any sympathy from those who saw it differently now it looks like your new club is fucked.

Edited July 28, 2009 by KingfaetheSooth

[Guest]

I don't know many people who feel emotionally attached to a company. Shite comparison.

..........but the minute the chickens come home to roost, then Livingston want to be treated as nothing other than a company. That's how they go about shaking off their creditors. It's a perfectly valid comparison I am afraid.

Why should your "emotional attachment" to Livingston be considered as something that eclipses everything else? I get really irked when football fans (of which I am one) paint the picture of how precious their emotions are, and that the survival of their club transcends the base instincts of creditors whose sole driver is filthy lucre. So when things get down and dirty, where is it footbsll clubs run to?????........................you got it in one..........company law. Fans then have this outpouring of weirdly shifted principled emotion that they would not give the time of day to in any other aspect of their lives.

[KingfaetheSooth]

No, not EVERY Livi fan posts on here. All I can say is that there were NONE [on here] who were sympathetic to or supportive of our cause at the time.

But unlike other Queens fans, I also watched Meadowbank Thistle in the 80's and also support Wimbledon having moved South many years ago. My views are obviously coloured by experience - I've always been upfront about that.

I'd wager that you are a more *cynical/wise/disilusioned football supporter after the last season following Livi.

* delete as applicable

Edited to say I meant o quote Livilass not Hopeful-Ton. Bloody iPhone Grrrrrr

Edited July 28, 2009 by KingfaetheSooth

[Skyline Drifter]

I wish I could access the posts by Livingston fans from when Morton were going through their troubles. Many of them would be unable to sit down tonight because of the bites on their arses!

Comments like (and I paraphrase)"there is no place in Scottish football for teams like Morton"; "Teams like Livingston, with their purpose-built stadia, are the way forward for Scottish football"; "history has no place in todays football" all spring to mind.

At that time we received NO support from Livingston fans, they were pompous in their views of our plight and looking at THEIR history, all I can see is a list of fly-by-night owners who, continually sponge off the few fans they can claim and then move on and pass the baton to the next shyster.

Livingston, the club or the fans get no sympathy from me. I will reserve that for the fans of teams like Medowbank Thistle and Clydebank. The real tragedy of this whole situation is that another team which cheated the system, i.e. Airdrie United, could once again be the benefactors.

No, not EVERY Livi fan posts on here. All I can say is that there were NONE [on here] who were sympathetic to or supportive of our cause at the time.

Unless you have changed user names, you were not a member of this board at that time. In which case you can hardly question what was posted at that time!

I am saying that I have NO SYMPATHY with Livingston what so ever!

Sorry if that does not sit well with you! I don't wish to be rude, but, I thought I made myself quite clear in my first post.

Your "Club" have been an embarrassment to Scottish football almost from its inception, in the same way as Gretna. The number of financial irregularities associated with Livingston would be enough to make Zanussi the obvious choice as shirt sponsors!

And, to clarify matters, I don't expect EVERY Morton fan to agree with me. What I have posted is a PERSONAL view. However, all those who DO remember the threads of the time may find it hard to disagree with my thoughts.

You do realise this website has only been going since 2003 right?

If these "troubles" you refer to are the Hugh Scott period then that was over before P&B began.

[The Naitch]

You do realise this website has only been going since 2003 right?

If these "troubles" you refer to are the Hugh Scott period then that was over before P&B began.

He could have meant the predecessor to P&B...

[Skyline Drifter]

He could have meant the predecessor to P&B...

The much less frequently used Scottish Football Online? I don't recall a Livingston fan posting on it!

[squidger]

it looks like your club is fucked.

Its not looking good for the luvvies, its not been looking good for a long time. By the sound of things on BBC scotland this morning at least it is coming to a head.

pretty shocking that this has been allowed to go on for so long.

It would be a shame to see a club, that could have a decent infrastructure, go to the wall.

[KingfaetheSooth]

Irrespective of what forum Hopefull_Ton refers, I find myself agreeing with almost every word if his posts. I would argue that many other fans would have supported the action of their Chairman in buying Clydebank's league place if their club was fucked. Self interest is a hard emotion to ignore.

If Livingston go under, their fans/trust will be judged and earn respect if they rise pheonix-like from the ashes and build a new club ala Clydebank, Gretna, Wimbledon etc. They will probably have to go it alone in the EOS league without McDougall holding their hand too.

[TheDoctor]

Its not looking good for the luvvies, its not been looking good for a long time. By the sound of things on BBC scotland this morning at least it is coming to a head.

pretty shocking that this has been allowed to go on for so long.

It would be a shame to see a club, that could have a decent infrastructure, go to the wall.

I thought the league were meant to be keeping an eye on the situation after the players sent a letter through the union to complain. I take it by "keeping an eye on the situation" it involved sitting on a comfy seat munching on popcorn while the club disintegrated.

I don't agree with having Airdrie and Cowdenbeath ready to step up to Div 1 and Div 2 respectively if Livi go tits up. If it means having a nine-team league in Div 1 this season then so be it, but just alter the promotion and relegation issue at the end of the season to balance it up.

EDIT TO SAY: Or better yet, bring about a league reconstruction to 16 or 18 teams, so that if another situation like this presents itself, then losing one tem out of those 16 or 18 isn't so much of a hole as opposed to one from 10.

Edited July 28, 2009 by Captain Jack Harkness

[Scary Bear]

Its not looking good for the luvvies, its not been looking good for a long time. By the sound of things on BBC scotland this morning at least it is coming to a head.

pretty shocking that this has been allowed to go on for so long.

It would be a shame to see a club, that could have a decent infrastructure, go to the wall.

I caught the tail end of the interview with McGruther on Radio Scotland, so I missed most of the content. Was the jist that Livi are fecked?

As an aside McGruther sounds a bit like McGrunter and makes me chuckle everytime, he must have hated school. McGrunter - ugly Scottish woman?

[pozbaird]

£280,000 or so owed in rent to the Council, a reported £300,000 owed to the Inland Revenue, and a group of Italian shysters in charge....

My dancing shoes are polished for them as a club, while my sympathies lie with people like the groundsman, ticket lassies, cleaners, etc, etc.

My money is on Wednesday's deadline being extended due to some last minute consortium wanting more time to 'look at the accounts in detail'....then the next 'final deadline' will come and go....

it's fcuking Gretna all over again.

[qos_75]

Airdrieonians paid the ultimate price for their mismanagement and blame the Chairman of the clubs who voted against Airdrie getting back in and forced them into the Clydebank scenario. Yes, voting Gretna in was a clever decision.

Do remember that Livi, Gretna and Dundee have all written off millions more than the debt that finished Airdrieonians.

In fairness the Gretna that was voted in and lived well within its means for the first two seasons in the SFL, was a very different beast to the one that died last season. If I remember correctly there were a few dissenting voices in Gretna regarding Mileson's influence on the club, to begin with anyway.

That said, I think most clubs would have struggled to reject his indecent proposal. Gretna were a very well run club, so it's hard too see how anyone could have predicted what would happen, when they were elected. It just so happens Mileson chose Gretna, but it could equally have been Berwick, Ayr or Queens for that matter (These teams are just examples for arguments sake, but I think you get my drift).

[Napoli1881]

Playing Devil's Advocate here, but if Livi do go to the wall, why would the 3rd have to go down to 9 teams instead of the 1st?

Why does the SFL think that the 'smaller'clubs have to take the financial hit of losing the takings of two home games next season?

[pacman]

In fairness the Gretna that was voted in and lived well within its means for the first two seasons in the SFL, was a very different beast to the one that died last season. If I remember correctly there were a few dissenting voices in Gretna regarding Mileson's influence on the club, to begin with anyway.

That said, I think most clubs would have struggled to reject his indecent proposal. Gretna were a very well run club, so it's hard too see how anyone could have predicted what would happen, when they were elected. It just so happens Mileson chose Gretna, but it could equally have been Berwick, Ayr or Queens for that matter (These teams are just examples for arguments sake, but I think you get my drift).

I agree with this. Gretna were a very wellrun club before we gained entry to the SFL and for a couple of seasons after. To be honest, my favourite days of watching Gretna were in the 3rd Division. Without Mileson's influence we'd probably have spent our lifetime quite happily in the 3rd and possibly 2nd divisions. If Mileson had actually paid for the things he "invested" in then I see no problem with it. It was the fact that a lot of the stuff wasn;t actually paid for and we ran up big debts that causes quite so much anger.

Anyway, Aidrie and Cowdenbeath set to be promoted and the 3rd Division to go ahead with only 9 teams. Why doesn't the 1st Division just operate wiht 9 teams? Why does it have to be the 3rd that suffers? Anyone like to hazard a guess at who will eventually gain entry into the 3rd division presumably the season after this one? Spartans? Some Highland league club?

[Tonsilitis]

If Livi are saved, what can be done to make them financially viable? It strikes me that:

1) Almondvale is just too big and too expensive for a club with a core support of 1000-1500. In that they mirror Clyde/Broadwood and Airdrie/Excelsior

2) Again, the size of support is insufficient to justify full time football

Livi could be a viable part time team living in the second division with occasional forays into the first provided they get a ground with costs consistent with the size of club they are. Alternatively, the council would have to accept a realistic rent for Almondvale i.e. get something rather than have an empty white elephant on their hands.

Still, all of the above is academic if the club can't get past today!

[KingfaetheSooth]

In fairness the Gretna that was voted in and lived well within its means for the first two seasons in the SFL, was a very different beast to the one that died last season. If I remember correctly there were a few dissenting voices in Gretna regarding Mileson's influence on the club, to begin with anyway.

That said, I think most clubs would have struggled to reject his indecent proposal. Gretna were a very well run club, so it's hard too see how anyone could have predicted what would happen, when they were elected. It just so happens Mileson chose Gretna, but it could equally have been Berwick, Ayr or Queens for that matter (These teams are just examples for arguments sake, but I think you get my drift).

Were Gretna that well run though? McGreggor was there all along and he was hoodwinked too.

The Dundee fans are currently wanking over Calum Melville, a businessman with property interests who supports Aberdeen - I'm currently struggling to see the difference though granted Dundee FC are a much better long-term proposition than Gretna and the Dee for Life trust still hold a 15% shareholding in the Dundee FC Limited.