The Master Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 And if I hear one more word from anyone making a stupid analogy about "it's just like when appealing a prison sentence, you still have to serve it until...blah, blah, blah..." I will scream. How quickly these people forget the cynicism from all of us year in year out when Scott Brown or some other Old Firm toerag gets booked for the umpteenth occasion and is due to be suspended for the next match - as it is a crucial one, they appeal the decision, during which time he is free to play as before until the hearing is heard and then - and only then - if unsuccessful will the suspension take place. So if there is any precident to this, it's not the one the SFL in their finite wisdom came up with. If you quite finished screaming, I'll explain the flaws in your post. You're not comparing like with like. Red cards go hand-in-hand with the offence. So when you appeal a red card, you are appealing against your "conviction" (as it were) for the offence. You are not appealing against the punishment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyle be back Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 I'm not going to trawl through 30 pages of comment since yesterday so... my understanding is that Livi need 14 votes to survive. Can all decent minded fans please lobby their chairmen to vote Livi into Div 3 please. A couple of days ago I was happy with giving the cheats a 15 point penalty in Div 1, but it has become obvious that toys have now been thrown out of prams big style. These guys couldn't lodge a bond (a bond they had committed to lodge one week earlier) to confirm Div1 fixtures could be fulfulled. Now whinging 'we're a 1st div side so can't play 3rd div football' is shite. The SFL have determined you are a 3rd div side. Until your appeal is heard that's what you are. It's like a court finding you guilty until the appeal happens. You take the punishment until the appeal is heard. It's not a case of 'I've been found guilty and therefore can walk about free as I have appealed' - the appeal is against the original decision (ie it stands until it is overturned) I am pig sick of the whining from Livi - did you cheat - yes. were you caught and punished -yes. Did you like it - no - boo hoo. Maybe you didn't want to play East Stirling as another gubbing by a Div 3 team would have shown you weren't a Div 1 team??? Waffen Thin Mint - a name that makes a joke from a SS division. Are you an apologist for these guys? What's your agenda? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantoms-livi-lass Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 I'm not going to trawl through 30 pages of comment since yesterday so...my understanding is that Livi need 14 votes to survive. Can all decent minded fans please lobby their chairmen to vote Livi into Div 3 please. A couple of days ago I was happy with giving the cheats a 15 point penalty in Div 1, but it has become obvious that toys have now been thrown out of prams big style. These guys couldn't lodge a bond (a bond they had committed to lodge one week earlier) to confirm Div1 fixtures could be fulfulled. Now whinging 'we're a 1st div side so can't play 3rd div football' is shite. The SFL have determined you are a 3rd div side. Until your appeal is heard that's what you are. It's like a court finding you guilty until the appeal happens. You take the punishment until the appeal is heard. It's not a case of 'I've been found guilty and therefore can walk about free as I have appealed' - the appeal is against the original decision (ie it stands until it is overturned) I am pig sick of the whining from Livi - did you cheat - yes. were you caught and punished -yes. Did you like it - no - boo hoo. Maybe you didn't want to play East Stirling as another gubbing by a Div 3 team would have shown you weren't a Div 1 team??? Waffen Thin Mint - a name that makes a joke from a SS division. Are you an apologist for these guys? What's your agenda? No need to trawl the 30 pages as your retort is pretty much the same. But I'd worry about noising up Waffen thin mint! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantoms-livi-lass Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 What was the score at Ochilv... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thistle_do_nicely Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 It'll still be here by Tuesday I reckon - the Third Division Forum is like The Land The Mods Forgot... It's still open. Looks like you are, indeed, correct. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 HJ, this won't be decided on normal legal reasoning, foootball decisions never are. We asked the SFA to look at something and without speaking to any of the people involved the SFA decided it "could not be proved and the case was closed"Oh really? The case was subsequently thoroughly investigated by the police and found by a sheriff to be proved beyond reasonable doubt. Scottish football administration at the SFA and SFL is an absolute joke. I'm pleased that we are in the EoS. Nobody will believe you,all our games administrators are of the highest quality both legally and morally. The SFL will get away with all this shit coz Livi can't afford to take it to a higher non-vested interest court. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Thank God! At last! Someone who sees that the SFL do not operate under common law. They make up their own rules Sir Calum. And because they make up their own rules as they go along we have the farce that is currently under discussion. See above re appealing a red card and being allowed to play in the next game.Exactly. I have been watching football for many years and cannot recall a league game being played with the rider that..eh.. maybe the result of this will not stand. See above re making up the rules as you go along. Can I also point out that rather than Livi finishing higher than Airdrie in the league for the reason that they paid big wages ( quote lost in the hundreds of posts) it would be more correct to say that they finished further up because they had an 18 year old striker from their youth system who scored a lot of goals. The constantly repeated mantra that Livi will have lost a lot of goodwill because of their stance on the appeal is laughable. This thread started last October. It has over 9000 posts the vast majority of which have Livi bashed from the start. When the hell was there ever goodwill towards Livi? I wish McGruther hadn't appealed because I just want it all to stop but in principal he was perfectly justified in doing so. Edited to add : I can't see the two teams that beat Airdrie and Cowdenbeath voting for something that would take away the three points they have just won. More farce! Jimbo you're wasting your time,I've posted on here until I'm blue in the face but the hatred gives the rest the power of veto. Wonder who'll change their tune when it's their club facing The Stevie Wonder Firing Squad,when they do their posts on this site will be getting rammed right up their shiteshoot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoss Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 I think it's a bit disingenuous to say "there but for the grace of god goes your club" - most clubs don't behave like Livi. There have been threads on this site over the past few months for Stranraer, Stirling, Clyde, and they have the overwhelming majority of support from fans of all clubs, more than a few of whom have been more than willing to dip their hands into their pockets to back it up, There are specific (and valid) reasons why Livingston have not attracted the same sympathy. Not that I consider myself a hater, and I still hope they do come through this, much as they've gone about it the wrong way by trying to set their own terms for that survival. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoss Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 You appealed last thing on a Friday evening, to get in touch with every club over the weekend to send a director at the drop of a hat first thing Monday morning is impractical and I would presume unconstitutional. Most directors are business folks who have other interests and don't work full-time for their football club, nice as it would be if Livingston FC were the centre of the universe around which everything else revolved.(In fact I thought you needed fourteen days notice for an SGM so I'm surprised they're able to hold it as soon as Thursday, but I can't see where I got that fourteen days things from so maybe that was wrong.) And just to correct my own post there - it's actually 21 days notice needed to hold an SGM. The SFL need to get a waiver from all thirty clubs to be able to hold it as soon as this Thursday. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mybitchunderprotest Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Can I also point out that rather than Livi finishing higher than Airdrie in the league for the reason that they paid big wages ( quote lost in the hundreds of posts) it would be more correct to say that they finished further up because they had an 18 year old striker from their youth system who scored a lot of goals. While no-one is able to say for certain that Airdrie would have finished higher than Livi if they too had grossly misspent on wages and a youth system while not having sufficient income to meet these outgoings it can be said that it would not have been detrimental to their cause. And this youth system that produced the 18 year old hotshot, did it cost nothing to have the scouting network in place and the coaches to develop the youngsters as well as paying wages to the players themselves including the ones who never made it to the first team. I think you'll find that starting and maintaining a youth system is a very expensive thing to do and while Livi were haemorrhaging money where did the money for this youth system come. I'll tell you, it came out the rent pot, the leccy pot and the tax pot! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 I think it's a bit disingenuous to say "there but for the grace of god goes your club" - most clubs don't behave like Livi. There have been threads on this site over the past few months for Stranraer, Stirling, Clyde, and they have the overwhelming majority of support from fans of all clubs, more than a few of whom have been more than willing to dip their hands into their pockets to back it up, There are specific (and valid) reasons why Livingston have not attracted the same sympathy. Not that I consider myself a hater, and I still hope they do come through this, much as they've gone about it the wrong way by trying to set their own terms for that survival. We are into the area now where the majority accept that this club should have been put to sleep a long time ago, but there is this forced logic that MacDougall and Rankine and Nixon and the fans are all innocents and don't deserve any of this, and they are trying to save the club so everyone needs to back off and support what they are trying to do and apply penalties which don't amount to a hill of beans. Where does that take us? Does this not put us in the place where every club can drop all standards of decency and live like Livvy? Then when it all goes tits up, the fans cry "oh woe is us" and everyone else sighs, shakes their heads, lets them install new "innocents" at the helm, and off we pop into la la land? Yes yes yes, the SFL have got stuff wrong, but please keep in mind who the real villains of the peace are! Livingston FC........pissing on the game we all profess to love for 14 years. That the SFL needs to overhaul its rule book is now self evident. Even more important to the well being of the game is that Livingston simply must pay for what they have done. Paying isn't a tiny slap on the wrist with a warning that they musn't do it again. The have sought to gain a competitive advantage over their peers by dishonest practices......it is simply the manner in which they have chosen to operate and have been given overt permission to do so by a public body. They will continue act this way until the penalty really hurts them. We see in the tantrums of the new brigade that self same "f**k you" arrogance is still very much alive, and from what is available on the web, that view is still the prevailing one amongst their support. It needs to end, and it needs to end this week. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(o)sean Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 We are into the area now where the majority accept that this club should have been put to sleep a long time ago, but there is this forced logic that MacDougall and Rankine and Nixon and the fans are all innocents and don't deserve any of this, and they are trying to save the club so everyone needs to back off and support what they are trying to do and apply penalties which don't amount to a hill of beans. Where does that take us? Does this not put us in the place where every club can drop all standards of decency and live like Livvy? Then when it all goes tits up, the fans cry "oh woe is us" and everyone else sighs, shakes their heads, lets them install new "innocents" at the helm, and off we pop into la la land? Yes yes yes, the SFL have got stuff wrong, but please keep in mind who the real villains of the peace are! Livingston FC........pissing on the game we all profess to love for 14 years. That the SFL needs to overhaul its rule book is now self evident. Even more important to the well being of the game is that Livingston simply must pay for what they have done. Paying isn't a tiny slap on the wrist with a warning that they musn't do it again. The have sought to gain a competitive advantage over their peers by dishonest practices......it is simply the manner in which they have chosen to operate and have been given overt permission to do so by a public body. They will continue act this way until the penalty really hurts them. We see in the tantrums of the new brigade that self same "f**k you" arrogance is still very much alive, and from what is available on the web, that view is still the prevailing one amongst their support. It needs to end, and it needs to end this week. [/quot] here here 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stimpy Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 The last time i was at a Livi game there was a wee burn just over from the park that had a shopping trolley and an empty Buckfast bottle in it. Oh how we laughed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaffenThinMint Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 If you quite finished screaming, I'll explain the flaws in your post. In other words I have you bang to rights and deep down you know it. Yes, funny how the "Burn Livingston as a witch" brigade hate it when a bit of rational thought gets in the way of a good lynching You're not comparing like with like. What? And you are with the ridiculous court analogy that would be laughed at by Sun readers? Red cards go hand-in-hand with the offence. So when you appeal a red card, you are appealing against your "conviction" (as it were) for the offence. You are not appealing against the punishment. Oh please! No player goes to the SFA and say "I wish the conviction to be quoshed but am not appealing against the ban?" As Jimbo said, the SFA and SFL do not operate under Common Law anymore than the Lawn Tennis Association or any other sporting body does. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 This one is for the future but I dunno where it should be posted so seeing as this thread is all about mismanagement and the SFL rules I thought I'd stick it in here..Would this/ could this work .....There is a simple way to ensure clubs ALL live within their means. No club should be allowed to spend per season (on wages, bonuses and signings) anymore than than 50 % of their annual turnover. If they sell a player that money would be included in that turnover total. The other 50% should then be used to cover all other expenditure ie. Utility bills, office staff wages, insurances, maintenance etc. Directors/ chairmen should be banned from lending money their club. If someone wants to donate money , then fair enough( and that would be added to annual turnover) but that must be exactly that, a donation with NO expectation of this money being repaid at any time. I get annoyed by the often used term financial investment... If someone buys a club and wants to freely invest their own money in that club then fine but again but only allowed as a donation and not a loan. All loans of this kind must be banned... To police this sysyem certain rules would have to be put in place.. 1. Payments to employees...If a football club fails to pay it's employees on time more than once in any calander year that club should have placed upon it, a transfer embargo lasting 6 months. If this happens a third time then the club should have an immediate points deduction of 10 points. If it happens a foruth time that club shall be liable for expulsion from the league. 2.Regular financial healthcare checks. The footballing authorities to employ a full time regulator who would be given the power to have access to all member clubs financial records at any time with NO NOTICE. Failure to comply with the regulators request would be penalised with a immediate 20 point deduction in the first instance and if the records were to remain unavailable for a period of one week from tyhe initial request, then the club would be expelled from the league. 3. Debt. Any club who's debt level reached more than 100% of their annual turnover ( except for capital building costs..) So I'm talking about day to day running expenses like rent , power bills, wages and the like., would be punished initialy by a suspended expulsion from the league for a period of three months in which time they would have to address this debt and clear it back to manageable levels. If after the three month period the club had not cleared this debt then the suspended sentence would be inforced. 4. Any club going into Administration/liquidation/interim administration during the season would immediately be given a punishment of a 20 points deduction.( if the club goes into Admin/liqui/in admin during the closed season they shall recieve a 20 point penalty to be applied when the new season starts) Any club starting a new season still in admin/Liqui/in admin would be given a 20 point deduction penalty( unless they have already recieved a penalty during the closed season.) 5 Any club going into Admin /liqui/in admin more than once in any 20 year period will face immediate expulsion from the league. ( this rule would apply from now and any such actions prior to the indroduction of this rule will not be count towards this total. Now I am sure there are other things and I'm sure to implement this sort of rule change would take a bit of time and a bit of legal work but FFS it's so simple that I can come up with it in half an hour and I'm no Albert Einstien.. Quite agree Ghosty especially player wages as % of turnover and soft loans. I realise and agree that Livi need hammered due the mismanagement of baton-holders,why instead of attempting to cull a club can't they set out a fixed penalty of -20 points almost ensuring relegation but giving the club time to restructure it's finances and perhaps rebuild for the future. If as seems the authorities don't want to bring in criteria to weed out the chancers then they need to introduce rules that encourage and virtually ensure good governance. I as a fan have no say in how my club is run and if a chancer is in place why should I lose my club due to others failng to control said chancers due to self-interest. Livi fans have been unfortunate that they were asked to buy into a club that has been built on shaky foundations exacerbated due to the baton being consistently passed from one chancer to another,regardless of Livis' fate over the coming weeks I hope that regulations are put in place to stop this farcical situation happening at a club near you. No club should be introduced into Scottish football with a business model like Livi had where it was unsustainable unless crowds were at a level of an SPL club or highflying 1st division club,it's not rocket science but unfortunately our shower of authority figures don't have the willpower/intelligence or open-mindedness to tackle the serious issues that blight our game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantoms-livi-lass Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 We are into the area now where the majority accept that this club should have been put to sleep a long time ago, but there is this forced logic that MacDougall and Rankine and Nixon and the fans are all innocents and don't deserve any of this, and they are trying to save the club so everyone needs to back off and support what they are trying to do and apply penalties which don't amount to a hill of beans.Where does that take us? Does this not put us in the place where every club can drop all standards of decency and live like Livvy? Then when it all goes tits up, the fans cry "oh woe is us" and everyone else sighs, shakes their heads, lets them install new "innocents" at the helm, and off we pop into la la land? Yes yes yes, the SFL have got stuff wrong, but please keep in mind who the real villains of the peace are! Livingston FC........pissing on the game we all profess to love for 14 years. That the SFL needs to overhaul its rule book is now self evident. Even more important to the well being of the game is that Livingston simply must pay for what they have done. Paying isn't a tiny slap on the wrist with a warning that they musn't do it again. The have sought to gain a competitive advantage over their peers by dishonest practices......it is simply the manner in which they have chosen to operate and have been given overt permission to do so by a public body. They will continue act this way until the penalty really hurts them. We see in the tantrums of the new brigade that self same "f**k you" arrogance is still very much alive, and from what is available on the web, that view is still the prevailing one amongst their support. It needs to end, and it needs to end this week. I can see all the writing on the wall, however what do you expect me to do? At the very first sign of bother you may well have been able to walk away, I have tried but simply cannot & I hate all this it HAS been a shitty time but I will not walk away I still remain a Livi fan you will just have to accept that no matter what your argument I will not stop being a LIVI fan. It sounds like you want us to say; yes freemason has a valid point- lets go get tickets for Falkirk now, it's as easy as that! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaffenThinMint Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Waffen Thin Mint - a name that makes a joke from a SS division. Are you an apologist for these guys? What's your agenda Oh dear, looks like the "bash Livi for the fun of it" brigade are getting desperate! Coming up next, "Livi strike secret deal with Nazis!", "Waffen Thin Mint Ate My Hamster!", etc But since you can't be arsed googling like the rest of us , Waffen just means "armed". The term "Gunboat Diplomacy" in English has "Waffenpolitik" as its equivalent (the Germans have been doing loads of such compound phrasing long before our media got the idea) The Waffen SS is probably the best known use of the word, but this was to differentiate them from the rest of the SS. The actual correct name for the German army at that time was the Waffen Wehrmacht (to differentiate them from the non-combatant parts), and this is why the Waffen moniker was added when they became a defacto part of the German Army (before this they had been called the SS-Verfügungstruppe aka SS-VT) As for where I got the idea...a pun based on that well known Nazi propaganda film Monty Python & The Meaning Of Life! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoss Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 How would the wage cap work, would it be fixed at the start of the season by being based on the previous season's income? Or would it be judged at the end of the year as to whether they'd exceeded that year's percentage or not? In the former case you're making it difficult for clubs to attract (and use) new investment, and it'd be a particular problem for newly-promoted clubs. In the latter case it'd need some careful judgement, income does vary from year-to-year on all sorts of factors and it'd make it difficult to set wage budgets, some clubs would be bound to exceed them and it'd lead to various shenanigans towards the end of the season. In either scenario there's a danger of encouraging (even more) use of brown envelopes, which is not something the SFL has the power to police very effectively. They already have the right to inspect financial records, at least I'm pretty sure I red that in the rulebook the other day. Resources are the problem there, as SD and others have noted. Not trying to pour cold water on anything here, these are all ideas that can and should be looked at. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoss Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Also, other costs vary hugely between clubs so the 50% thing applied across the board isn't necessarily going to be aprticularly appropriate as a means of determining what a club can reasonably afford to spend on wages. Many clubs own their own grounds and have substantially lower costs than those who are renting them. That's often down to sensible financial management over a long period of time so not allowing them to spend their extra cash seems neither fair nor teleologically sound in relation to the effect you're trying to achieve. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phantoms-livi-lass Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 The last time i was at a Livi game there was a wee burn just over from the park that had a shopping trolley and an empty Buckfast bottle in it.Oh how we laughed. Did you get your wee winkle out and have a wee piss? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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