Livingston - all the threads merged

[LiviLion]

3 hours ago, Cptn Hooch said:

 

 

What's this all about? I wonder if you've anything to do with J Domingo

 

Whoever runs the Almondview podcast twitter has suggested the criticism of Chuk is racially motivated, a bizarre take considering the similar levels of abuse McCrorie, Kelly, and Williamson all recently got. Even Hardie got loads of abuse despite helping us get promoted.

Probably good intentions, but wide of the mark and pretty unnecessary 

Edited February 6, 2022 by LiviLion

[LIVIFOREVER]

23 minutes ago, LiviLion said:

Whoever runs the Almondview podcast twitter has decided the criticism of Chuk is racially motivated, a bizarre take considering the similar levels of abuse McCrorie, Kelly, and Williamson all recently got. Even Hardie got loads of abuse despite helping us get promoted.

Probably good intentions, but wide of the mark and pretty unnecessary 

Seems extremely bad taste to bring colour into it, stupid comment to make really. 

[ATLIS]

6 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Seems extremely bad taste to bring colour into it, stupid comment to make really. 

It's virtue signalling, almost a perfect example of it too

[Guest]

1 hour ago, JD and associates said:

Stirring up unnecessary racial tension. Is that how you’d rather support this point scoring then you foul mouthed young man?

"Playing the race card" is a phrase used in USA to bait, silence and gaslight black people. If you continue to try import it here then folk like me will continue to aggressively oppose you on that, you foul-brained old man.

Anyway, those tweets. While this video largely omits mention of Afro-Caribbean background footballers in UK, it's nonetheless a solid starting point if you're unfamiliar with the sobering history of anti-black racism in UK football. 

 

The experiences of black footballers in UK can be felt viscerally. Clarke Carlisle's dad bursting into tears when asked by his son about racism he endured while playing is a particularly jarring example. In our own back yard there's such lowlights as Jason Scotland, a man carrying that name due to the Scottish slaver who owned his ancestors, being racially heckled at Fir Park. Even closer to home there's the Livi fan who yelled a racist insult at our own club captain only a few years back. https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/livingston-fc-slams-fans-over-darren-cole-racial-abuse-627910

Given this historical context - recent not ancient history - given that we were all raised in a society steeped in this shit, is it really so unreasonable to suggest we must all be mindful of not allowing any passive influence its had on us to shape our view of a black player in any way? Black players, especially black attacking players, have historically had accusations of laziness thrown at them as a matter of course. They were accused of being too big for their boots, of not fancying the bad weather, or of just not being as salt of the earth and as honest in their toils as the ethnic Brit players. Tell me you haven't seen echoes of those sentiments in the criticisms of Chukwuemeka? Now does that mean such criticisms which happen to have some overlap with historical tropes are necessarily racist? Absolutely not. It is most often completely coincidental if that does happen. However, is it the case that all us Livi or Scottish football fans are innately aware of anti-black racism, so much so that calls for self-vigilance are redundant? No. We don't know our arse from our elbow on it and are constantly learning. 

Discussing racism is the best way to tackle it not shutting down discussion of it. 
 

[JD and associates]

I have absolutely no interest in what happens in the USA, nor could I care any less. I also have no interest in people using racism as a way of point scoring, and as has been rightly said above, virtue signalling. You have manipulated a very sensitive issue to promote your podcast and your own reputation. It’s backfired massively and you’re rightly being called out for your shameful behaviour last night. People like you who choose such delicate topics to take the moral high ground deserve all the abuse you get. You have now been put on ignore. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, JD and associates said:

I have absolutely no interest in what happens in the USA, nor could I care any less. I also have no interest in people using racism as a way of point scoring, and as has been rightly said above, virtue signalling. You have manipulated a very sensitive issue to promote your podcast and your own reputation. It’s backfired massively and you’re rightly being called out for your shameful behaviour last night. People like you who choose such delicate topics to take the moral high ground deserve all the abuse you get. You have now been put on ignore. 

I managed to read those tweets because my brother linked them to me on whatsapp. I don't have a Twitter account, I am not the author of those tweets and I've no idea who was. I only know of the Almondview podcast because it's been mentioned during the half time announcements at matches recently. I've never listened to it. 

You've put me on ignore?  Huv ye, aye? Alright, ok, thanks for the heads up.

[Guest]

To emphasise a part of my post above folk might get stuck on. Am I saying its by default racist to, for example, call a black attacking player lazy? No. No, no, no. Black players can have the same flaws as any footballer and to state your earnest belief that a black player has that flaw is absolutely fine. To my reading, these tweets were someone simply reminding us to to be sure that when we are making these criticisms of black players, that we're accounting for any biases when doing so. That those biases may sometimes be present in us is an entirely reasonable suggestion given the societal context we live in.

[EdinburghLivi]

3 hours ago, ATLIS said:

His clearance has been through for some time, he tested positive for COVID when he turned up at the club and has only been in training late this week. Was technically available for yesterday but had only trained 2-3 days.

He's available for Ross County midweek, as is Konovalov I think

Konovalov is due to arrive this week but may not make it in time for Wednesday. If Soto tested positive for COVID, it was well after he showed up as he was at the Hibs game.

[EdinburghLivi]

3 hours ago, LiviLion said:

Whoever runs the Almondview podcast twitter has decided the criticism of Chuk is racially motivated, a bizarre take considering the similar levels of abuse McCrorie, Kelly, and Williamson all recently got. Even Hardie got loads of abuse despite helping us get promoted.

Probably good intentions, but wide of the mark and pretty unnecessary 

Don't know him personally but appears to be going through a difficult period which should excuse him from any twitter posts.

Clearly a good guy along with the rest of the Almondview guys. Hope things get better for him if he is reading. 

[LIVIFOREVER]

1 hour ago, FreedomFarter said:

To emphasise a part of my post above folk might get stuck on. Am I saying its by default racist to, for example, call a black attacking player lazy? No. No, no, no. Black players can have the same flaws as any footballer and to state your earnest belief that a black player has that flaw is absolutely fine. To my reading, these tweets were someone simply reminding us to to be sure that when we are making these criticisms of black players, that we're accounting for any biases when doing so. That those biases may sometimes be present in us is an entirely reasonable suggestion given the societal context we live in.

Had no idea about any of that, and sure as feck wasn't making any judgements on Chuck due to his skin colour, he was as i said in an earlier post, same as Jack Hamilton was before going out on loan, skin colour has nothing to do with how a player is lazy, or just not interested, complete pish that Chuck is getting criticism because of being black.

[LIVIFOREVER]

3 hours ago, ATLIS said:

It's virtue signalling, almost a perfect example of it too

Yeah and still no need for it.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

complete pish that Chuck is getting criticism because of being black.

I never fucking said he was. The tweets I'm defending, to my reading, weren't saying it either. Rather, they were merely urging self-vigilance on the part of all of us in respect to our own potential biases. Was it his job to do that? No, but he was just tweeting on his own account and not forcing anyone to read them. That he's being pilloried for this is shameful. As for this new guy who's turned up just to throw shit at Carson and this Almondview podcaster, why you taking his side? Could be J Domingo again for all we know.

[Guest]

I keep douple-posting here like a knobhead but that's because I am a knobhead, so apologies for that.

Look, nobody here is being called a racist and nobody here is a racist. Even this new account guy, he propagated a very malicious phrase but likely just hasn't thought about that and is unaware of how its used in USA. Normally, I wouldn't have bothered but it appeared he'd made an account just to come and attack Carson, who I'm a big fan of, then he starts laying into some small time podcaster too.

With the racism thing, again, nobody here need feel accused in the slightest. The point isn't "see him over there, well he's a racist! So Booo!". The point is that all of us are subjected to the passive influence of anti-black racism in our culture and (almost) all of us have unwittingly propagated it at some point. This is established fact which social scientists the world over have proven. So if some Livi fan just tweets his thoughts out loud, wondering if we should be mindful of this when it comes to criticism of a particular player, I think that's reasonable. And its also ok to think there's zero racial bias anywhere among the criticism of that player. Again, entirely reasonable conclusion.

But we have Fannybaws McGroinsack barging on here all outraged and demanding the guy get his podcast "cancelled" over those harmless tweets. If we can see how the backlash on Carson is unfair we should be able to see that the backlash on this Almondview guy is also unfair. And its Fannybaws McGroinsack who's leading the witch hunt on both.

Edited February 7, 2022 by FreedomFarter

[LIVIFOREVER]

3 hours ago, FreedomFarter said:

I never fucking said he was. The tweets I'm defending, to my reading, weren't saying it either. Rather, they were merely urging self-vigilance on the part of all of us in respect to our own potential biases. Was it his job to do that? No, but he was just tweeting on his own account and not forcing anyone to read them. That he's being pilloried for this is shameful. As for this new guy who's turned up just to throw shit at Carson and this Almondview podcaster, why you taking his side? Could be J Domingo again for all we know.

I never said you did, so wind your neck in. 

 

I'm not taking his side, i disagreed with him on Callum Carson, didn't comment on the podcast fella as i haven't seen what he wrote, but then others posted about it and i said it was a stupid comment to make, and there was no need for it. I don't believe anyone on here saying Chuck had a mare, or being critical of his performance gave a thought of his skin colour. And the fact anyone has to justify their reasons for being critical of him to prove they're not being racist is exactly why it was a stupid thing to say.

[ol1vercloff]

Marvin Bartley's tweet at Callum Carson was a bit ridiculous.  If players/managers/assistant managers can't take the criticism, they should come off social media.  They love it when they're getting praised.  Callum's tweet wasn't even that critical, it was stating a reasonable opinion.  Journalists, local or otherwise, don't owe it to football clubs to go easy on them.  Perhaps the relationship between the club and Callum has been too pally pally over the years, so when the cold, hard, truth is spoken, people's feelings get hurt.  I wouldn't put it past the club to react by not helping Callum out with interviews etc now.  They can be petty from time to time.  But basically, if Caleb can't handle some criticism, then maybe professional football isn't for him.

 

I must admit, I missed this whole Almondview race row that people are talking about.  Can someone fill me in?

Edited February 7, 2022 by ol1vercloff

[DavideFernandezLoveChild]

A few points:

- Carson is not employed by the club. His role, as a journalist, is to report on the match and club events in an non-biased manner. I don't think he was incorrect to tweet that. Chuck has not been up-to-speed in any of his games. Getting hooked after 7 mins would solicit such a tweet. 

- Marv's reaction, although well-intentioned, is reactionary and wrong. I want Callum to report honestly. He shouldn't be beholden to the management team as in the long term this would result in him 'keeping the club happy'. We do not want Callum to feel like he needs to keep management happy to do his job as ultimately, a good relationship allows him to get interviews etc., but this can't be dependent on the reporting they do or do not agree on. We don't want a Rangers like scenario of only 'buddy buddy journalists' operating at the club. (I am not saying we are anything close to the CCP style hold the Rangers have over the media room).

- We should all be wary of how we criticise players - of course - but to think that the frustration toward the boy is racially motivated, or is worse due to outright racism, doesn't fly with me. Nothing about the criticism has been any worse than previous frustrations with players. I can't think of any time in the history of the club were we have any racial hatred towards our own, or opposition players. I would hope we as a club and supporters would call that out if we did see it. 

Edited February 7, 2022 by DavideFernandezLoveChild

[JD and associates]

Hopefully a convoy of supporters buses going to Edinburgh on Saturday. Would like to hope we’d sell out our allocation (usually less than 1000 there).

[LiviLion]

12 hours ago, ol1vercloff said:

I must admit, I missed this whole Almondview race row that people are talking about.  Can someone fill me in?

I think @FreedomFarter put it better than anyone else will tbf.

They tweeted about how toxic the atmosphere was towards Chuk and said something along the lines of wondering if there were underlying societal issues with it (see FF's post/s about micro-racism and stereotypes we don't always realise we might be peddling).

It's definitely an important conversation to have; but I think it was one for a little while after the game, when folk had calmed down about the performance (or lack of?) from the referee as well as the player. I'm sure it was an attempt to make people aware of the situation and how it could be perceived, but when you're as wound up as most of us were then seeing someone mentioning racism it's going to seem more accusatory than awareness raising.

I'm sure they'll bring it up on a podcast and that'll be a better setting for it.

[LogieLivi]

Don't know him personally but appears to be going through a difficult period which should excuse him from any twitter posts.
Clearly a good guy along with the rest of the Almondview guys. Hope things get better for him if he is reading. 

So, the poster on the almondview twitter is my brother.
He is indeed as you state, going through an absolutely hellish time at the moment.
He had signed out of the twitter account due to this, but obviously after the game, he had got frustrated with some of the language etc used towards Big Chuck during the game, leading him to sign in to post that reaction.
According to him, someone shouted "get that big b*****d off" at one point during his 7 minute cameo.
This has obviously triggered the reaction posted on twitter.

Once the rest of us (4 others) woke up the following day to find those tweets, we all agreed (the 4 of us, excluding my brother) to delete the tweets as the podcast should represent the views that we all have and NOT the views of one member of the group. If he had posted to his own personal twitter account then, fair enough but we were all embarrassed to read the tweets the following day.
He even posted an apology after we deleted the tweets, however once again without our knowledge.

I honestly believe that my brothers intentions were only good, and with the massive media coverage and interest in the BLM movement etc, I believe that he thought that what he was saying at that moment in time was correct, but of course, it was way off the mark.

I have been one of the biggest critics of Chuck since he made his debut and I will continue to be until he either shows us that he is any good, or gets binned completely. But my criticism is based purely on the footballing ability that I see on the pitch and not on the colour of anyone's skin.

I know that our listenership will probably take a hit based on the comments made, however once again, I believe that my brothers intentions were only good, however seriously backfired.

I think we will try and address this issue on this weeks podcast, however without my brother being there (he's on a hiatus for the personal issues mentioned initially) an apology or whatever coming from 4 people who didn't agree with him anyway, is not going to be as effective as coming from him.

I would like to say though@edinburghlivi thank you for the well wishes, he sometimes scouts P&B but doesn't post here. I shall pass them on to him.

[LogieLivi]

Can I also just say as well.
This new poster "JD and associates" is clearly J Domingo and probably also "Scrutinizer".
JD = J Domingo.
Both shitposters with chips on their shoulder about our club.