Livingston - all the threads merged

[EdinburghLivi]

The SFL has to ignore MacDougall and Rankine's power play from last week, face them down and apply the severest penalty to Livingston. I would be happy (and seemingly most of the "Livi" fans with their heads screwed on don't object) with a demotion to the second division, as it will show that clubs simply can't behave as though the articles of the SFL, and the laws of business, don't apply to them.

You sir, are quite moronic if you would be "happy" with a demotion simply to satisfy what you want. Let's not forget here, we are 3 days until the start of the league season. 3 days. Buses have been booked, hospitality has been sorted and in some cases tickets have been paid for.

If the SFL wanted to demote us, they should have made it clear that was their intention from the meeting on Thursday so that Airdrie, Arbroath, Ross County and ourselves knew exactly what the story was and who were were facing the following Saturday.

If the SFL decide to demote us, it shows what a farcical organisation they really are who have simply buckled under pressure through this whole saga. No action when Massone was running wild, apparently getting taken in by McDougall, Rankine and Nixon's '1st division' business plan and now collapsing to some fuddy-duddys with a vandetta.

The maximum we should get is a points penalty, if the SFL have any sense.

[Skyline Drifter]

21.7 Except as aftermentioned no club shall be entitled, either directly or indirectly, to transfer its

membership of the League to another club

Think you answered your own question there.Clydeband, albeit indirectly, transferred their league membership to Airdrie United

No. No they really didn't.

[AND180Y]

I know this is difficult, but no, they didn't. There has been no transfer of league membership. Airdrie United ARE Clydebank - the company is the same legal entity, it has merely had a change of name.

Yep you are quite correct company number SC042250 Clydebank Football Club Limited changed it's name to Airdrie United Football Club Limited on 30th July 2002.

[Ivo den Bieman]

You sir, are quite moronic if you would be "happy" with a demotion simply to satisfy what you want. Let's not forget here, we are 3 days until the start of the league season. 3 days. Buses have been booked, hospitality has been sorted and in some cases tickets have been paid for.

If the SFL wanted to demote us, they should have made it clear that was their intention from the meeting on Thursday so that Airdrie, Arbroath, Ross County and ourselves knew exactly what the story was and who were were facing the following Saturday.

If the SFL decide to demote us, it shows what a farcical organisation they really are who have simply buckled under pressure through this whole saga. No action when Massone was running wild, apparently getting taken in by McDougall, Rankine and Nixon's '1st division' business plan and now collapsing to some fuddy-duddys with a vandetta.

The maximum we should get is a points penalty, if the SFL have any sense.

What "I" want doesn't matter. For the Scottish Football League to have any kind of integrity or credibility, however, Livingston have to suffer some kind of serious penalty.

Is it somehow the fault of the SFL that folk have made travel arrangements which the actions of Livingston FC- and only those- have thrown into doubt?

I find your sentence

"If the SFL decide to demote us, it shows what a farcical organisation they really are who have simply buckled under pressure through this whole saga"

pretty ironic to be honest. We wouldn't be here if they hadn't already buckled under the pressure exerted by Rankine and MacDougall last Thursday, which has caused this whole farce to be dragged out a week longer than it should have been.

and this:

No action when Massone was running wild, apparently getting taken in by McDougall, Rankine and Nixon's '1st division' business plan and now collapsing to some fuddy-duddys with a vandetta.

what, the dreadful and unreasonable "vandetta" that asks you to live within your means and not benefit on the park from unscrupulous and legally questionable behaviour off it, and, if you don't, that you suffer the consequences? Curse those old fuddy duddies right enough.

For all the contrition and crocodile tears before last Thursday, it seems that the "Livi" support hasn't really changed its spots at all. You spent money you didn't have, and are about to bump a set of creditors for the third time running, yet all that really matters is that you still have a football team to watch at the weekend.

For a more wrong headed post your last really can't be bettered.

[Monster]

Ivo Den Bieman - excellent post.

Perhaps the reason the S.F.L. won't punish Livingston is their reluctance to admit a franchise isn't sustainable.

I fully expect this CVA to be ten pence in the pound, and tomorrow I fully expect no sanctions to be taken against Livingston.

For some reason we have this belief in 'fairness' or 'justice', and the reality is we're no better than Italy for cheats and scumbags running our game.

[The Old Northerner]

For all the contrition and crocodile tears before last Thursday, it seems that the "Livi" support hasn't really changed its spots at all. You spent money you didn't have, and are about to bump a set of creditors for the third time running, yet all that really matters is that you still have a football team to watch at the weekend.

It does seem that the 'history starts here' moveable feast does have a strong foothold in Livingston.

[EdinburghPar1975]

You sir, are quite moronic if you would be "happy" with a demotion simply to satisfy what you want. Let's not forget here, we are 3 days until the start of the league season. 3 days. Buses have been booked, hospitality has been sorted and in some cases tickets have been paid for.

If the SFL wanted to demote us, they should have made it clear that was their intention from the meeting on Thursday so that Airdrie, Arbroath, Ross County and ourselves knew exactly what the story was and who were were facing the following Saturday.

If the SFL decide to demote us, it shows what a farcical organisation they really are who have simply buckled under pressure through this whole saga. No action when Massone was running wild, apparently getting taken in by McDougall, Rankine and Nixon's '1st division' business plan and now collapsing to some fuddy-duddys with a vandetta.

The maximum we should get is a points penalty, if the SFL have any sense.

Edinburgh Livi - I noticed that the clubs official page is asking for fans to now come forward and buy season tickets..do you think this will be effected by the delay in announcing what sanctions Livi will face? Given the timescales I think relegation is probably out the window but if it did happen, have you heard what would the fans who've already purchased tickets for the SFL1 season think? Also, if a ten/ fifteen point deduction was imposed do you think this would also affect sales?

[Yoss]

We shouldn't just be thinking of "Livi" here. It's the future governance of Scottish football that's at stake.

If "Livi" get to walk away from this with a token points deduction the message is clear. The SFL will not do anything when clubs find themselves in serious financial trouble, particularly if that clubs latest "white knights" happen to be very well connected with the blazer circuit in the first place (Rankine and MacDougall).

Now I can understand the SFL not wanting to be seen to kill clubs off, and that, to some extent, is fair enough. But there comes a point where severe sanctions have to be applied and "Livi", to my mind, passed that point a very long time ago, not long after Massone took over and the first rumblings of discontent were heard from Almondvale.

I support a team that has festered in the alimentary canal of Scottish football for almost all its life. We don't have an overdraft, largely because we don't own Links Park. Several times in the last ten years directors and fans alike have put their hands in their pockets to simply keep the club alive. Never at any point did we consider spending the £300,000 that's probably necessary to build a title winning third division side and sustain it at a higher level than we could afford because we had no way of paying that money back. If the clubs one or two major investors withdraw their funding, for whatever reason, we will be back to signing cast offs from the Tayside juniors and bumping along in the bottom three, whilst holding regular gala days and the like to try and keep money coming in.

If the SFL don't punish Livingston the it will have two consequences; league management will be seen as so weak that club owners will feel that they can do what they like and sort it all out over a sherry at Hampden, plus financial institutions will just laugh when Scottish football clubs come looking for a loan to keep going through a difficult time. In the long run that will force many more clubs to the wall.

I plead guilty to having despised Livingston ever since they were shat into existence in 1995, but in the broader picture that's irrelevant. Either the league all our clubs play in has some kind of integrity and tries, in an ever more commercialised and corporate world, to maintain as level a playing field as possible for all its participants- or it doesn't. Either we play in a competition that treats every participant fairly and equitably, or we don't. "Livi's" treatment last week strongly suggests the latter and that's why so many fans (and, seemingly, club officials behind the scenes) are furious at the SFL's craven spinelessness.

Even if nothing much happens tomorrow, which is the likeliest scenario, some good may come out of this utter debacle- pressure for reform of the SFL from fans and club officials alike. The whole organisation has to be professionally run, with the ability of the blazers to do grubby backstairs deals of convenience restricted, if not removed altogether. It's not an amateur carpetbowls league for fucks sake- it's a national competition which is supposed to be held up as an example of fairness and good practice. Instead, it's a national embarrassment, which, season on season, attracts ever declining interest from the paying public. I hope that Henry McLeish has been taking careful notes in the last week and coming up with strategies to try and get the SFL professionally run, with agreed codes of practice so that all clubs know what will happen when members like "Livi" piss all over the rule book, and expect to get away with it.

The SFL has to ignore MacDougall and Rankine's power play from last week, face them down and apply the severest penalty to Livingston. I would be happy (and seemingly most of the "Livi" fans with their heads screwed on don't object) with a demotion to the second division, as it will show that clubs simply can't behave as though the articles of the SFL, and the laws of business, don't apply to them.

I'm not holding my breath though.

Nothing at all to disagree with there.

[EdinburghPar1975]

I fully expect this CVA to be ten pence in the pound, and tomorrow I fully expect no sanctions to be taken against Livingston.

I'm still confused as to how Livi can afford to pay a (rumoured) £700k bond to stay in the league but their creditors can only get a 'p' per £ amount...can someone explain? Is it because the bond would be lodged by individuals and not the club itself?

[MacWatt]

This may have been answered already but do not 75% of the creditors have to vote in favour of a CVA? Will HMRC, West Lothian Council and Scottish Power vote for this knowing they will only get 10p or so in the pound? In a situation of an insolvent club with minimal assets, it may be that these parties will vote for it as it is the best return they will get.

I agree with many posters who feel that a club who trades beyond their means should not gain an advantage over other clubs who operate within their means. Not to punish Livingston in these circumstances would be ludicrous and send out a signal that the SFL is a toothless joke and that clubs can cheat their way to success in the knowledge that they can go into administration or enter into a CVA then start up again as if nothing has happened.

[BullyWeeBoy]

Another problem for Livi is if they get demoted the bigger players in the squad will leave and with the league starting on Saturday could cause a lot of problems I doubt some of your "High earners" will want to play 2nd division football next year

[EdinburghLivi]

What "I" want doesn't matter. For the Scottish Football League to have any kind of integrity or credibility, however, Livingston have to suffer some kind of serious penalty.

Is it somehow the fault of the SFL that folk have made travel arrangements which the actions of Livingston FC- and only those- have thrown into doubt?

I find your sentence

pretty ironic to be honest. We wouldn't be here if they hadn't already buckled under the pressure exerted by Rankine and MacDougall last Thursday, which has caused this whole farce to be dragged out a week longer than it should have been.

and this:

what, the dreadful and unreasonable "vandetta" that asks you to live within your means and not benefit on the park from unscrupulous and legally questionable behaviour off it, and, if you don't, that you suffer the consequences? Curse those old fuddy duddies right enough.

For all the contrition and crocodile tears before last Thursday, it seems that the "Livi" support hasn't really changed its spots at all. You spent money you didn't have, and are about to bump a set of creditors for the third time running, yet all that really matters is that you still have a football team to watch at the weekend.

For a more wrong headed post your last really can't be bettered.

I'd agree we do have to suffer a penalty but not at the detriment of the league. Hence why a points penalty is the only sensible option now that they have taken their action in saving us.

It is their fault that they haven't made clear on what they are going to do after letting us of on Thursday. McDougall seems to think we'll get nothing while others think we'll be demoted, it's farcical. They should have made clear then what they were going to be punishing us with, if at all.

No irony, my friend. I've shown below that I realise that McDougall, Rankine and Nixon were apparently putting them under pressure, however there has been totally different messages coming out on that front. Interestingly enough, you decided to delete that part of my post to make me look stupid while keeping everything else in.

No, the vandetta that sees us getting as punished as harsh as possible. This may be them championing the right thing but at the same time, it's taking over them so much that they can't see that now the SFL have saved us that they can't see what is better for the league. If we're given a points penalty we're going down anyway, without a shadow of a doubt. If we go down now, it fucks up a hell of a lot of plans that other clubs have made.

I'm looking out for Scottish Football more than the club, mate. If I was fucking sensible, I would say relegate us (like the rest of the Livi supporters seem to be saying) so that we have a chance to stabalise on a budget quicker. However, I realise that it is far too late for this to happen so that the only option is to see us getting deducted points so that we limp through the season in last place and get relegated. It will be a shit season but the SFL have acted way too late to consider any other punishment.

[EdinburghLivi]

Edinburgh Livi - I noticed that the clubs official page is asking for fans to now come forward and buy season tickets..do you think this will be effected by the delay in announcing what sanctions Livi will face? Given the timescales I think relegation is probably out the window but if it did happen, have you heard what would the fans who've already purchased tickets for the SFL1 season think? Also, if a ten/ fifteen point deduction was imposed do you think this would also affect sales?

No, any loyal supporter will go out and buy the season ticket anyway. We're down to our loyal supporters anyway so I doubt that will have an effect.

I am going to get mine as soon as I get the cash.

Another problem for Livi is if they get demoted the bigger players in the squad will leave and with the league starting on Saturday could cause a lot of problems I doubt some of your "High earners" will want to play 2nd division football next year

We have no really high earners left, of that I can assure you. All of the £1k a week players are gone now that Innes has.

[Yoss]

I'd agree we do have to suffer a penalty but not at the detriment of the league. Hence why a points penalty is the only sensible option now that they have taken their action in saving us.

It is their fault that they haven't made clear on what they are going to do after letting us of on Thursday. McDougall seems to think we'll get nothing while others think we'll be demoted, it's farcical. They should have made clear then what they were going to be punishing us with, if at all.

No irony, my friend. I've shown below that I realise that McDougall, Rankine and Nixon were apparently putting them under pressure, however there has been totally different messages coming out on that front. Interestingly enough, you decided to delete that part of my post to make me look stupid while keeping everything else in.

No, the vandetta that sees us getting as punished as harsh as possible. This may be them championing the right thing but at the same time, it's taking over them so much that they can't see that now the SFL have saved us that they can't see what is better for the league. If we're given a points penalty we're going down anyway, without a shadow of a doubt. If we go down now, it fucks up a hell of a lot of plans that other clubs have made.

I'm looking out for Scottish Football more than the club, mate. If I was fucking sensible, I would say relegate us (like the rest of the Livi supporters seem to be saying) so that we have a chance to stabalise on a budget quicker. However, I realise that it is far too late for this to happen so that the only option is to see us getting deducted points so that we limp through the season in last place and get relegated. It will be a shit season but the SFL have acted way too late to consider any other punishment.

Longmuir wasn't in a position to make the decision as to what was going to happen to you, that could only be done once a full meeting was conveded and it would be wrong - indeed it was wrong - of him to try and second-guess what they'd decide.

And that it's happening so close to the season is Livingston's fault and Livingston's alone. And yes I know that was Massone and there was nothing much you could do about it, but nonetheless.

[Ivo den Bieman]

I'd agree we do have to suffer a penalty but not at the detriment of the league. Hence why a points penalty is the only sensible option now that they have taken their action in saving us.

It is their fault that they haven't made clear on what they are going to do after letting us of on Thursday. McDougall seems to think we'll get nothing while others think we'll be demoted, it's farcical. They should have made clear then what they were going to be punishing us with, if at all.

No irony, my friend. I've shown below that I realise that McDougall, Rankine and Nixon were apparently putting them under pressure, however there has been totally different messages coming out on that front. Interestingly enough, you decided to delete that part of my post to make me look stupid while keeping everything else in.

No, the vandetta that sees us getting as punished as harsh as possible. This may be them championing the right thing but at the same time, it's taking over them so much that they can't see that now the SFL have saved us that they can't see what is better for the league. If we're given a points penalty we're going down anyway, without a shadow of a doubt. If we go down now, it fucks up a hell of a lot of plans that other clubs have made.

I'm looking out for Scottish Football more than the club, mate. If I was fucking sensible, I would say relegate us (like the rest of the Livi supporters seem to be saying) so that we have a chance to stabalise on a budget quicker. However, I realise that it is far too late for this to happen so that the only option is to see us getting deducted points so that we limp through the season in last place and get relegated. It will be a shit season but the SFL have acted way too late to consider any other punishment.

well, we can agree that the SFL is run absolutely farcically, at least.

On the matter of "punishment" I wouldn't see the calls for demotion as any kind of vandetta. To be honest, given that you were massive odds on not to exist this week, I'd take that rather than bitterly complaining about fantasy "vendettas".

Yes there will be inconvenience to others, but "Livi" has to take any blame for that going, as much as the SFL.Issues of "oh but it's too late" and "what about the poor fans who've already booked their tickets" is nothing more than a smokescreen. After all, if you had been properly run, none of this would be an issue. What's "better for the league" and what's "better for Livingston FC", clearly, aren't one and the same thing.

In my view, the inconvenience to a few well organised fans is a lesser evil, than a club being allowed to get away with what's on Livi's charge sheet, relatively unpunished. Not that you'll agree, fair enough.

[Guest Flash]

It isn't a vandetta to want to see Livi relegated. Had they lived within their means, and only signed players they could afford to pay, they would already be in the Second, at best.

[forkboy]

Nah, I think at this stage, a big points deduction, at least 20, would be a harsher punishment that straight forward demotion, because they won't possibly overcome that, they'll play all year knowing that they will be getting relegated, and that should hurt their crowds.

So, especially at this late stage, I'm in favour of a hefty points deduction.

[SNECKSTAGGIE]

This may have been answered already but do not 75% of the creditors have to vote in favour of a CVA? Will HMRC, West Lothian Council and Scottish Power vote for this knowing they will only get 10p or so in the pound? In a situation of an insolvent club with minimal assets, it may be that these parties will vote for it as it is the best return they will get.

I agree with many posters who feel that a club who trades beyond their means should not gain an advantage over other clubs who operate within their means. Not to punish Livingston in these circumstances would be ludicrous and send out a signal that the SFL is a toothless joke and that clubs can cheat their way to success in the knowledge that they can go into administration or enter into a CVA then start up again as if nothing has happened.

I may be wrong but I thought it was the creditors that equalled 75% of the debt as opposed to just 75% of all creditors. I'm sure someone more knowledgable that me will correct me if I'm wrong!

[JimM]

I agree with many of the comments on the board; unfortunately I feel that many people forget that it is the owner of the club that drove Livi down this road and he is the person who is walking away with £50K. The owner needs to be punished not just those left picking up the pieces.

[Ivo den Bieman]

Nah, I think at this stage, a big points deduction, at least 20, would be a harsher punishment that straight forward demotion, because they won't possibly overcome that, they'll play all year knowing that they will be getting relegated, and that should hurt their crowds.

So, especially at this late stage, I'm in favour of a hefty points deduction.

If I were Gordon MacDougall I'd rather have 1500 in for a midweek fixture against Dunfermline, paying a bigger entrance fee, even with a home team miles adrift at the foot of the table, than 600 for a fixture on the same night against Alloa, with a team treading water in the middle of Div Two.

I suspect that the SFL voting for a big enough points deduction, enough for them to save face after the backlash following last Thursday, is the likeliest outcome. Relegation, although personally that's the option I'd vote for if I wore a blazer, seems pretty unlikely, certainly more unlikely than the third option- which is that the SFL do next to bugger all about it.